[Hito]

hello all, Hito here wanting to ask for pointers of how to deal with High elves. Currently our store is working on an escalation league setup (where I got roped into painting not only my own army, the VCs, but two other guys armies as well, TK and LM respectively. Good money but a lot of work. off the point though) The store already sees at least two player that have considerable more experience than I do and play both wood and high elves.

Reasons for starting this? last game I was in a doubles match with another newby who had dwarves. 1750 a side, I had 1000, he had 750. Opponent was the High Elf player who was essentially running a 1000 and 750 list. It was an embarassment. The lesser dragon he fielding had the scout rule and was right next to the dwarf cannon on our side of the table and proceeded to chew through the dwarves and one of my vampires, while his two bolt throwers that were on higher ground so could draw line of site to EVERYTHING ate through my grave guard, and his heavy cavalry chewed through my blocks of skeletons. We killed just one high elf, and that was the dragon mage that was riding the dragon, while he decimated our entire force. I couldn't get a spell off and the dwarves cannon missfired on the only shot he would have gotten. I don't want to be embarassed like this again.

So how do you deal with the high elves? Because frankly it seemed like the amount of magical items/power shinanigans he was pulling off makes me think of the old DnD addage, Elves cheat.

What I currently have at my disposal are:
40 skeletons
20 ghouls
40 zombies
10 grave guard (hw/s)
8 black knights
5 blood knights
2 corpse carts
Vampires a plenty

 

[Rising Leviathan]

Well first off, ask this guy about how he got the scouting Dragon. The only way I can think of is illegal for two reasons:

1. The only item that gives a character the "Scout" rule must be used on foot.
2. As the Character was a Mage, he can't wear magic armour.

You might think of the Dragon's ability to fly, as it can close gaps to the enemy real fast. As for the list, take very magic heavy and run big blocks. If you're still teaming with the Dwarf player, ask him to take plenty of thunderers and a cannon. Dragon gone.

As for the fact that you didn't get any spells off? I suppose you run two Vampires? That should be plenty with some magic items, and remember the dwarfs get extra dispel dice, so dispelling won't be a problem.

If you manage to tie up the heavy cavalry with a unit, then the whole cavalry will be wasted very quick. It sounds to me that you got terribly bad luck, coupled with your enemy being quite experienced, so take it slow, learn from every situation and you'll soon stomp him in the mud. VC and TK are my least favourite opponents to play because the whole army is unbreakable. Elves hate unbreakable.

And yes, Elves cheat, that's our job.

Regards,

 

[Hito]

The dwarf player only had the dwarf half of the skull pass set. Then theres the question of how to deal with the bolt throwers?

Was thinking of picking up some fell bats. (possibly proxying bat swarms as them from bat swarms as I dont care for the fell bat models)

 

[kithre]

Vampires have it really easy vs High Elves, certainly in comparison to many other armies. Avoid their fighty foot units and hold them up with speed-bump skellies, and then flank with hard-hitters liek Black Knights, Grave Guard etc. Dragon princes are nasty heavy cavalry, but they are only T3 heavy cavalry - if you can hold them for 1 turn (shouldn't be too difficult) then you can really mire them in combat. And unless they have a standard of balance or Lion banner.

A scouting mage-dragon shouldn't have scared you as it can't exist - perhaps you can ask your friend for his army lists and post them on the HE section? And if a rule looks questionable (which this one does - imagine SNEAKINg a dragon that close to enemy lines!) then it should be questioned.... Hopefully I can help you deal with an effective list and where his list is weak...

 

[Hito]

Again no mention of the bolt throwers.

So what I gather from here are:

A) large blocks of troops (skeletons/zombies)

B) vampires with lots of power dice and lord of the dead.

C) black knights or grave guard to flank.


I also am learning that Corpse Carts are useless against HE. Always Strike First? Big freaking deal against the HE.

Frankly I want to poor so much cheese down his smug, condescending throat that he chokes on it.

 

[kithre]

Lol - Vampires are the cheesier army TBH..
But yeah, High Elves are an easy army to win with in a conventional sense - with Undead you have to be a little...sneaky?

 

[Regnal]

How does it work when two units with ASF come into combat with one another? I've heard many different variations on this. My favorite is if two units with ASF begin combat then they are both treated as neither having ASF and regular rules apply such as charges, GWs, and initiative. If this is the case, VC ASF would destroy the HE units with great weapons.

 

[Rork]

How does it work when two units with ASF come into combat with one another? I've heard many different variations on this. My favorite is if two units with ASF begin combat then they are both treated as neither having ASF and regular rules apply such as charges, GWs, and initiative. If this is the case, VC ASF would destroy the HE units with great weapons.

Follow the rules in the BRB exactly - It tells you what happens when two ASF units face each other. One side with great weapons or charging has no influence.

 

[kithre]

How does it work when two units with ASF come into combat with one another? I've heard many different variations on this. My favorite is if two units with ASF begin combat then they are both treated as neither having ASF and regular rules apply such as charges, GWs, and initiative. If this is the case, VC ASF would destroy the HE units with great weapons.

Rork has it dead-on 0- you just compare initiatives flat...

 

[Hito]

and with VC units having low to average initiative at best (save the vampires themselves) ASF will have no effect against the HE.

 

[BustaCaps]

not really, I find if you have a combat vamp in the unit with ASF, he can wipe out 2-3 elves, depending on his build, and against units like white lions or sword master that is huge, since it will mean less attacks against you, and if the unit is affected by the helm, then that means even less attacks back, and you may have some rank and file troops to attack back getting another wound or two.

ASF if put on certain units can be very deadly against high elves, Only vamps really benefit from it, but it can really do some damage against them since there so fragile.

 

[Zagman]

Firstly, there was no scouting dragon. The dragon deployed off to the flank within my deployment zone, moved up behind hard cover and charged turn 2.

Secondly, my bolt throwers were VERY accurate and damaging agains your ten grave guard. Coupled with your bad luck of only bringing back one.

Thirdly, you had terrible luck getting wounds through my saves, GW on your 2nd vamp would have owned the challenge from the drakemaster. I had the battle banner and did very well killing skeletons on the charge with five dragon princes with drakemaster and bsb. The reason it went so poorly is that I engaged the unit through an overrun which allowed you a flank charge with your ghouls, which did not help the combat as they failed to kill. The combat res victory of 9 was enough to kill most of the ghouls and most of the rest of skeletons. A little luck or a GW on your vamp would have killed the drakemaster and lessed the combat res.

You were getting magic through, though you only had two casters. You even managed to get Vanhel's Danse off as a bound item. We also did the multipe armies wrong for power and dispel. I should of had two base dispel, while your army had three. I looked it up because I had no idea at the time.

The biggest problem was deployment. I managed to deploy most of my force away from your spread out armies in the corner protecting my elevated bolt throwers. When the two of you deployed, you didn't coordinate and your scary undead hoards which would have done some serious damage were very far away from combat. I also had first turn. The dwarves were too far away to stop my combat charge, a thane and a good runic selection and I wouldn't have broke them and lost my calvary.

You also had no ranged attacks and no units capable of getting to me, I got to bring the fight to you on my terms while using concentrated ranged attacks to widdle away the undead units. Black knights would have been very beneficial. Bats would likely have gotten to my warmachines, unless I could have killed them.


And that lone elf, was 205pts and a general, so it was a good kill. I wasn't trying to be cheesey, but brought just about all of my models against you two. I have been playing roughly six weeks, maybe seven.

 

[Zagman]

Frankly I want to poor so much cheese down his smug, condescending throat that he chokes on it.

I didn't mean to be smug and condescending. If anything, I was getting annoyed with the Wood Elf player adding imput to everything. And, the internet is only percieved anominity. 0) No hard feelings.

No need to bring the cheese, without the partner and some kind of fast unit you will see that I will truly have a major issue against VC. Wait till one of my units has to stand against a charge of blood knights. Been stomped by VC in 2k before.

I also started my army after you did, though I have gotten in more/larger games quicker; some of which have been against VC.

Don't worry about a dragon mage, first and one of the only times I will field it, worry about the treeman you seen at 1k, the dragon dies much easier.
----------

and with VC units having low to average initiative at best (save the vampires themselves) ASF will have no effect against the HE.

Nope, but I have Str3, T3 on most units, even my calve post charge. All you have to do is get a couple to strike back, or your Vamp to kill some and I am done. You will outnumber me and are fear causers, so a single victory and we run away.
----------

and with VC units having low to average initiative at best (save the vampires themselves) ASF will have no effect against the HE.

But it effects your Vampire quite nicely and if he has a Great weapon it won't matter since ASF overwrites the GW rules as it comes down to pure initiative. Your Vamp strikes before everything in my army except my hero/lords and strikes at the same initiative as my fasted special special troops. A vamp with GW strikes at Str 7, meaning my 2+ becomes a 6+ armor for the calv.

 

[Hito]

Well hello Lee, didn't expect to see you here.

Yes I sound mean here, but jesus tap-dancing christ on a stick, after something like that I'm allowed to be at least slightly pissed.

You're still my friend but seriously that game got on my nerves.

 

[Zagman]

I understand completely, nothing went your way that game. Deployment seriously hamstringed you with the dwarven block 5 turns away from combat and no possible way for your army to get to my bolt throwers. It didn't help that I had two very mobile units which allowed me to choose my combats. One big thing about high elves. If we get the combats we want, we win. Make us fight in any other scenario, we get chewed to pieces.

My tips for the next game are take black knights, blood knights, or fell bats. Against Hight Elves I would go with the black knights. Deploy directly away from my bolt throwers/ infantry blocks and march until you get into combat. Vamp with Great Weapon will own most everything in my army. Spirit Hosts can work as I don't have much of anything to take them out without magic missiles. Black Coach is absolutely nasty, and I have nothing that can instapop or stop it for that matter.

If you want to ruin my day, give a vamp the night shroud and the sword of might with master of the black arts, mounted on a skeletal steed. You generate 3 power dice. You get to hit most everything on 3+, wound on 2+, with a -3 to AS. I had nothing in that army that could of stood up to that, only the dragon, which would stand a chance.

Then for the other caster, go with Dark Alcolyte and Avatar of Death (GW), give him the book of Arkayne and the Black Periapt mounted on skeletal steed.

Fill out the army with a big block of skeletons, two small units of ghouls, a corpse cart, unit of grave guard or fell bats, and a unit of black knights.

At a 1k game, I would have a lot of trouble dealing with that list.

P.S. If you want to kill a treeman, take four blood knights with banner of hellfire for 250pts; you will kill it on the charge.

 

[kithre]

Yeah - Black Knights are good..

 

[Hito]

That's why I'm finishing up their paint job. As I dont think any of the elves have 'throw away' units to bait them.

 

[Zagman]

That's why I'm finishing up their paint job. As I dont think any of the elves have 'throw away' units to bait them.

Great Eagles(cheap flyer), Ellyrion Reavers(Fast Calv), Shadow Warriors(Scouts) for High Elves.

Great Eagles(cheap flyer), Glade Riders(Fast Calv), Scouts(Scouts), Warhawk Riders(Flying Calv) for Wood Elves.

Harpies(Flyers), Dark Riders(Fast Calv), Shades(Scouts) for the Dark Elves.

 

[Hito]

how often are those fielded anyway? It seems that HE are point heavy to begin with and wouldn't be able to spend many points on bait units.

 

[Zagman]

I will be fielding shadow warriors when I get some, just because I don't like to look of the Great Eagle. Great Eagles are dirt cheap, and only take up one of our four rare slots at 2k. A single 50pt Eagle parked behind your forces could cause you some headaches, especially as you don't have much offensive magic and no ranged weapons. This is why Fell bats can be so important, a chance to either get to my warmachines, or tie up a single S4 T4 flyer with only two attacks. Your Fell bats will win combat on average and a Great Eagle will fly away with your fell bats in tow. If they Great Eagle Flees, then no harm, no foul, keeps you from being marched blocked till turn 3, and gets your flyers closer to warmachines.

I doubt you will ever see a Great Eagle from the Wood Elves, as with only two Rares as 2k, and choice between Treemen, Waywatchers, and a Great Eagle. I doubt you will see one. But, the Wood Elves are so mobile you will likely see Glade Riders as your march blockers and redirectors as part of their core choices. Nice thing is that their Wild Riders, Dryads, etc for close combat are immune to psychology, meaning they aren't fleeing a charge, ever.

Dark Elves, no idea what you will see really. My guess would be small units of Harpies, but that is only a guess.