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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
i have been playing a while but stopped a couple of years ago, ive decodded to get back into IG again. Anyway my army is made up mostly of storm troopers, hardened veterans, couple leman russ's, basilisk, chimera and a few othe support units such as sentienls, anti tank squads etc. The main problem is that everyone seems to use space marines and i hate that becasue its they are quite difficult to kill. so i was wandering about what people thought of using large amounts of stor troopers and hardened veterans with a number of upgrades. my army list is below

HQ

Command Platoon 1

Carapace armour for whole unit

Command Squad: Heroic Senior Officer + power fist
Veteran
Meltagun
Master vox
Standard bearer
Medic

Anti-Tank Support Squad : 3 missile launchers

Anti-Tank Support Squad : 3 missile launchers

Fire Support Squad : 2 autocannons
heavy bolter

Special Weapons Support Squad : 3 sniper rifles

Sentinel Squadron: 2 sentinels + 2 autocannons

Command Platoon 2

Carapace armour for whole unit

Command Squad: Junior Officer + plasma pistol
Grenade launcher
Plasma gun


Inquisitor
+ power weapon + bolt pistol

Elites

Hardened Veterans 1
9 veterans + 2 grenade launchers + flamer + vox
veteran sergeant + power weapon + iron discipline
carapace armour
Hardened Fighters


Hardened Veterans 2
9 veterans + 2 grenade launchers + flamer + vox
veteran sergeant + power weapon + iron discipline
carapace armour
Hardened Fighters

Hardened Veterans 3 (
9 veterans + 2 grenade launchers + flamer + vox
veteran sergeant + plasma pistol + iron discipline
carapace armour
Hardened Fighters


Vindicare Assassin


Troops

Storm Troopers 1
10 storm troopers + grenade launcher + flamer
Veteran sergeant + power weapon + iron discipline
Chimera + multilaser + heavy bolter
Hardened Fighters


Storm Troopers 2
10 storm troopers + grenade launcher + flamer
Veteran sergeant + power weapon + iron discipline
Hardened Fighters
Rhino

Storm Troopers 3
10 storm troopers + grenade launcher + flamer
Veteran sergeant + power weapon + iron discipline
Hardened Fighters
Rhino

Storm Troopers 4
10 storm troopers + grenade launcher + flamer
Veteran sergeant + power weapon + iron discipline
Hardened Fighters

Infantry Platoon

Carapace armour for whole unit

Command Squad: Junior Officer + power weapon
Grenade launcher + vox

Infantry Squad : veteran sergeant + plasma pistol + power weapon

Infantry Squad : veteran sergeant + power fist

Infantry Squad : veteran sergeant + power weapon
missile launcher
grenade launcher

Infantry Squad : veteran sergeant + power weapon
missile launcher
grenade launcher




Heavy Support

Leman Russ 1
(140) + lascannon + heavy bolters

Leman Russ 2
(140) + lascannon + heavy bolters

Basilisk
+ indirect fire


Any sort of help would be appreciated
 

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well first off and before anyone slaps your wristes you MUST remove all of the upgrade costs, just post a total for the sqd (read the forum posting rules for why)...

......and welcome to LO :w00t:

generally when using guard given the choice between taking two elite units or three cheap infantry units you should go with numbers.

niether carapace armer or hardened fighters is really worth it; know getting no save against bolters sucks but i find its better to suck it up and shoot back with your other 100+ men than hope your 50/50 save (and remenber vertually every hvy weapon in the game will ignore it) pays off. plus the pionts used for these upgrades can get you more men.

i could be wrong but i think you can only give iron discipline to officers not to sgts, and if you are not using th 'honourifica imperialis' elsewhere get a junior officer with it as HQ as it saves you 5pts, and a power fist on a independent character is a horrible idea as he can be singled out before he strikes at I of 1 he will die, better to take a commissar with power fist as he can't be targetted.

vs marines you should be stocking up on missle launchers, las cannons and plasma guns; LOTS of plasma guns! i know gets hot will kill alot of your men but hay they are only guardsmen.... trust those AP2 shots are really worth the losses.

flamers??? non, no and nien not in infantry sqds that you dont intend to commit suicide with eception being sqds in a chimera, deep strike (altough in that case meltas would be better) or possibly in a junior officers command sqd where four can be used in anti assault spioling run.

good fire discipline and attenion to spacing is the key to winning with guard against any opponent; pick the biggest threat to you at the start of your turn and shoot EVERYTHING at it untill its gone then move on to next biggest threat and repeat. try and throuw up a 'skirmishing' line at least 7 inches forward of your big guns to absorbe assaults and keep those guns firering longer. if you can split into two flanks with a gap betwwen and fire both sides at one flank of his army and concentrate on it untill its gone even if it means lossing the other and then start on his other flank.... by the time they get to you they will be so weakened from fire and assault they should simply fall to your numbers.

by the way i'm too lazy to count; what pionts value is this list aimmed at?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
interesting, i dont like the idea of accepting casualties thats why i decided to take hardened fighters and storm troopers along with the grenadiers and veterans doctrine points to max as many of these units as possible. what ive come to realise is that 1 squad of upgraded storm troopers is equal in points to 1 basic space marine squad with nothing but bolters. are storm troopers really able to handle this threat?
 

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in a straight up fight going toe to toe? no

at range the higher strength of the bolter and space marines higer toughness and better save mean the take down rate is going to be one sided.

in close combat higher int, toughness and strength on to of abetter save and the 'shall know no fear..' rule mean that once again the space marine win hands down.... barring some very lucky dice rolls.

btw the storm troopers in rhinos; taken as a troops choice with the allied inquisitor? they can't have hardened fighters, you can not take a seconed command unit as HQ as the entry in the codex says '1' not '1+' and the inqusitor fills a seconed slot any way. if you use a docterine piont to get carapace armer then EVERY unit must have it (bumping the cost of eah infantry unit, support unit etc by 20pts) except if aply it only to rough riders; read the entry in the codex.

and really: edit your first post to remove idviual pionts costs; it breaches copyright laws and makes the modoraters cry....:cry:
 

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That is a pretty stange force org chart with a few problems. First of all, you can't give carapace armor to just one squad- you have to give it to all squads. Also, dump the flamers for sure on your line squads. They will probably never get to use them- take a plasma gun instead. All of your autocannons will only be useful if your marine opponent brings landspeeders and rhinos- otherwise drop them. For 75pts a squad with only 3 sniper rifles is just not worth it against marines. Spend those points on another line squad with a missile launcher- it will do way more damage. I would also forget about the inquisitor- they are rarely worth their points, and you can't take a vindicare and an inquisitor in an IG force org chart... yet. (read assassin rule loophole thread- you're being blocked by the new DH faq)
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
sorry, i dont intend to use everyting in my list but its everything i have bar a few random models, carapace does seem a bit rubbish though
 

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yeah on stormtroopers its ok but at 20pts a sqd its not worth it.

you might want to put more of your hvy weapons in infantry sqds they are harder to kill with all those warm bodys to catch fire for them; but concetrating you fire power is also valid. ohh and the vet sgts in infantry sqds can't have power fists or power weapons as they are listed as 'officer only' items, only vet sgts in veteren sqds can ignore that.

if this is your whole collection i'd say make an arny list and post it on the army list forum and lead with the fact you are looking to optimise your force for spacemarines and we'll give you some more concentrated advice.

i hope some of this has helped:wacko:
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
the help has been usefull and much appreciated. i have a new perspective on my army now and can hopefully optimise it. the only reason i specifically want optimise it against space marines is that so many players use them. its all well and good massacering eldar or orks but when a common space marine player beats you almost everytime its very irritating. thankz again guys
 

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IG general rule 1)
Artillery kills enemy, infantry keeps enemy away from artillery.

IG general rule 2) Line squads with heavy weapons forward, counterattack squads maxed on special weapons waiting 6"-7" behind. No other army can have as many plasma\melta guns as the IG, use them.

Sniper rifles are useless against power armor, use a demo charge and 2 melta instead.
 

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As a Space Marine player I'll give you some advice, since you are getting back into the hobby. Heavy weapon squads are not a good idea (they will be targeted) Ordinance ap 3 rounds are very scarry use them yes it is ok to kill a whole squad in one shot. Also be ready for a deep striking squad it will be either loaded with combat troops or units that will shoot the stuff out of the priority target, so have 2 special weapons squads with as many plasma weapons as possible. Also make sure you have units of infantry around your tank to protect them.
 

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Another point re your special weapons choices in the vet and stormtrooper squads: Flamers and grenade launchers do not make a happy couple. I know thats what is provided both in the karskin box and the cadian box, but these weapons are poor if you are relying on them to be your main attacking weapon (lasguns aside). You should really be kitting out at least 2 of the 3 stormtrooper squads with double plasma, and your vets should be totting 3 plasmas per squad. These weapons are crucial to beating space marines. Personally I dont mind the slightly cheaper grenade launcher, however I usually use it in "mobile" squads that aren't going to do much and dont have a heavy weapon, such as infantry cmd squads. I sometimes use a double grenade launcher in a grenadier squad at smaller points games as they can be useful if a squad is intended to move around the board, but I wouldn't rely on that squad to kill too many marines.. they are great for picking off scouts however.

Your HQ cmd squad is a bit 'all over the shop'. You should probably stick to a bare bones JO with honorifica and a power weapon. A vet with standard and 3 guardsmen with CCW + LP. The master vox is a points sink you really dont need, especially when the units that could benefit the most from it (your infantry squads) aren't even vox equipped.

Im assuming that 1-2 of the stormtrooper squads you have listed as troop choices are inquisitorial storm troopers? The grenadier doctrine only allows you up to 3 stormtrooper squads as troop choices.

You have too many elites in your FOC as it stands. 3 hardened vet squads take up your 3 elite choices.. however you have an inquisitor and an assassin as well, which are 2 additional elite choices. Since you are only allowed 1 elite choice from the DH codex as an ally, you will have to decide which you want more. The inquisitor should be an inquisitor lord (thus still allowing you to take an assassin), but in this case you will also have to take a minimum retinue of 3 henchmen.

Anyway, you got the beginnings of a decent army, it just needs a bit of reorganisation so that it fits standard force orgs. Hope that helps.
 

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Just to reiterate what several people have already said, as their importance cannot be stressed enough....plasma/melta weapons and ordnance templates are your friend. Lascannons and missile launchers make good marine killers in a pinch, if there are no suitable vehicles in range/LOS.

Also, never underestimate the power of the hellhound. I've wiped 3/4 of a marine squad with the hellhound's inferno cannon. You won't always get that lucky, but marine players tend to ignore it in favor of other units. Then suddenly they are making 10 armor saves a turn thanks to the lowly hellhound.
 

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Most of it has been said but let me add just a little here.
1)Any weapon that can hurt an ap3 is your friend that means the following:
lasercannon, plasmagun,meltagun,missile launcher, battlecannon, demolisher cannon, bailisk cannon.
2) Do not underestimate numbers. When you can outnumber him 3 to 1 or higher that is a good thing. 1 flashlight is not going to hurt. 100 flashlights will hurt. Yes I have killed an terminator squad with 100 flashlights shoot at it.
3) Autocannons do great against landspeeders and rhinos
4) Target priporties will always be the key kill anything that can get to your lines fast. For example jump assault squads or bike squads.Because you can outshoot any army.
5) Never leave home without close order drill and iron discipline. It can make a difference.
6) Last but not least is your development is key. You need to have good firing lanes and be able to support each squad. Plus try if you can stay at least 6.5 away from each squad.
Goodluck against SM
bonekrusher
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
thankz guys, all those grenade launchers and flamers have rapidly become plasma guns and ive decided to drop hardened fighters and get ratlings, a much cheaper sniper option than special weapons units. i know i have way too much stuff and to be honest what ive listed is about half of what ive got but who can resist all the different guardies and the different looks and unifroms. i cant thats for sure.
 

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I noticed a Vindicare Assassin and Inquisitor in there. While the Vindicare was in Codex: Assassins and the Inquisitor in the 3rd ed. rulebook (I think), their special rules have been superceded by the Inquisition codexes, and you'll have to adhere to their special rules if you want to take them as allies. Codex: Daemonhunters has these special rules in the grey box on page 26. You must also take an Inquisitor Lord or Inquisitor in order to use an Assassin.

Since you are only allowed 1 DH HQ and 1 DH Elites, in order to take the Vindicare you'll need to take an Inquisitor Lord, which costs more points and requires a retinue of 3-12 Henchmen. This should be all right, though, since the Inquisitor's Warriors have a pretty long list of upgrade weapons, effectively becoming an extra Special Weapons or Fire Support squad, as well as allowing your Vindicare.

Finally, if you decide on the Vindicare, remember NOT to just try to take out your opponent's HQ with him alone...it won't work. Instead, use the Marksman ability to shoot the expensive, single-wound models that your opponent was counting on having other models in their units to protect them, such as heavy weapon models, tool-ed up Sergeants (esp. Assault Marine sergeats, say, with a plasma pistol and power fist), etc.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
exactly my thoughts, the only thing is that vindicare and inquisitor and his little posse are very expensive and probably only really usefull in higher point games although i can see them being worth the points.
 

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most of what needs done has been said, Th biggest thing is to mov the missles into the squads and put plasma/ melta guns in the storm troopers, apart rom that if you poke a space marine army with guard they fall down ^^
 
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