[shas_on_u]

The only thing necrons loose against seems to be those uber units that almost ALL other races seem to have. And no im not talking about carnifexes im talking about units so powerful they could laugh in the face of titans whiel simultaneously pouding primark's faces in. How on earth do you beat them??? The kind of units im talking about are as follows:

Pedro Kantor + Terminator Chaplain + 10 Assault Terminators (700pts)

Farsight + 7 bodyguard with 14 shield drones and a ridiculous amount of wargear (1.1k)

Abbadon + 10 Khorne Terminator Champions with dual L-claws (800pts)

Farseer + Seer Council on Jetbikes with Enhance and 9 Destructors (800pts)

Warboss with a bike + 10 nob bikers with a painboy, cybork bodies, powerklaws and bikes (900)


So what do you do? I generally just fire a lot of warriors at em and then clear up the mess with the c'tan. It worked for everything but the bikers, too damn fast to mount full power and RIDICULOUSLY hard (T5, 2 wounds, 3+ cover and 4+ feel no pain anyone?)

 

[Alzer]

Alright I'll go through the straight up most simple counters I can think of right off for all of these.

1. C'tan (either one) for close combat, shoot with (heavy)destroyers.

2. (heavy) Destroyers, Monolith (particle whip)

3. Deceiver, shoot with (heavy)destroyers

4. 10 man scarab unit. Charge them, tie them up for the game. (spears only count as S9 vs vehicles, against scarabs they would wound on a 2+ whooo de hoo, no insta gibbing!) Or shoot with destroyers (standard, still insta-kill ^^)

5. Tri-mono. Every failed cover save is a dead nob. Also they have a somewhat difficult time killing the monos from range. Shoot with (heavy) destroyers.

 

[Dark Trainer]

The big heavies are always dealt with by my Ctan. In fact I always bring 3 wraiths now too. Since once the Ctan is in range, I can swoop them in and gain a nice 12 more S6 attacks. Combined with the Deceiver's 5 on the assault, I don't usually lose combat plus not much can stand up that combo. In fact, you'd be surprised how much cannot wound a Ctan T8 except for claws, etc.

 

[the_pariah7]

What do I do/What would I do?

Vs. termies and other 2+/5+ units? Send a C'tan in there. These sorts of units are fielded in rarity. So either there is one or two units or the units themselves are small. In terms of shooting? Warrior gauss spam (and hope they don't charge you anytime soon).

Vs. Farseer and annoying council? Spam gauss cannons. The sheer volume of shots will at least guarentee a few hits and its insta-death too. Wraiths are alright but they're too fragile against the exotic weaponry they might have.

Vs. Abaddon and his croneys? C'tan again. Even though Abaddon 'can inflict insta-death with that sword of his', it has no real effect on the C'tan (I believe it mentions that under the Necrodermis rule, where you take a wound without the benefit of the save in the case of 'insta-death'). The khorne termies should barely scratch you (I think).

Vs. Nobs? That's a little more tricky because of the insane protection that can get. Particle whip works nicely, denying their T5 from biking and inflicting instant death. Heavy destroyers are okay but its only 3 shots from one unit, not really ideal. C'tan can work but those powerklaws can be quite threatening when coupled with a large volume of attacks. Tomb spyders can get a few hits in but don't expect them to survive the CC.

I'll tell you, if they're spending that many points on a single unit, a C'tan can very easily make his points back after having them for lunch. Don't forget to abuse the misdirect rule to get where you need to or leave CC and come back with a charge.

 

[Sean McArthur]

Vs. Nobs? That's a little more tricky because of the insane protection that can get. Particle whip works nicely, denying their T5 from biking and inflicting instant death. Heavy destroyers are okay but its only 3 shots from one unit, not really ideal. C'tan can work but those powerklaws can be quite threatening when coupled with a large volume of attacks. Tomb spyders can get a few hits in but don't expect them to survive the CC.

How does the particle whip deny the T5 from biking?

 

[Alzer]

Bikes only grant a temporary toughness boost. When instant death from double toughness is considered they are still only counted as T4.

 

[Sean McArthur]

awesome, don't suppose you could tell me where to find that, I have a friend that runs a Ravenwing army and I'm sure he'll make me show him where that is if I try to use it lol.

 

[Alzer]

Page 53 under the "bikes" section, paragraph "additional protection." in the BRB.

 

[the_pariah7]

Yeah, I should explain...

Damn! Alzer beat me to it...

But yeah, in a nutshell, anything S8 or above will insta-death nob bikers as well as marine bikers as they have a standard T4 with added protection for shots that are NOT insta-death.

I can see why you would struggle against nob bikers if you weren't aware of this rule. But now you know so all's good. :soldier:

 

[JeremyKyle]

10 Pariahs + Deceiver = 660 points.

 

[shas_on_u]

The big heavies are always dealt with by my Ctan. In fact I always bring 3 wraiths now too. Since once the Ctan is in range, I can swoop them in and gain a nice 12 more S6 attacks. Combined with the Deceiver's 5 on the assault, I don't usually lose combat plus not much can stand up that combo. In fact, you'd be surprised how much cannot wound a Ctan T8 except for claws, etc.

Then you've never played the above units. Abbadon WILL kill a c'tan on the charge so the terminators don't even matter. Nob bikers S9 will kill one off. Farsight and co will kill it at range. Seer council will OWN it. And even kantor and his buddies can have a good go.


So far I can see liths deal with nob bikers well having tried it recently.

The marine terminators die to 40+ rapid firing warriors.

The farseer unit looses badly to pariahs and immortals (wounding on 2s anyone?)

But as for abbadon & co as well as farsight and bodyguard I have recently fought them and cannot beat them no matter what I try. The only way I beat farsight was a dlord + c'tan + 10 pariahs but lets face it. If thats in your army your gonna phase out turn 2 anyway. As for abbadon there seems to be nothing that I can beat him with. Pariahs loose to I3, c'tan die to abbadon, liths ain't got ap2 ect, ect. Im gonna try 9 heavy destroyers and if that doesn't do it, 9 tomb spuiders.

 

[JeremyKyle]

Then you've never played the above units. Abbadon WILL kill a c'tan on the charge so the terminators don't even matter. Nob bikers S9 will kill one off. Farsight and co will kill it at range. Seer council will OWN it. And even kantor and his buddies can have a good go.


So far I can see liths deal with nob bikers well having tried it recently.

The marine terminators die to 40+ rapid firing warriors.

The farseer unit looses badly to pariahs and immortals (wounding on 2s anyone?)

But as for abbadon & co as well as farsight and bodyguard I have recently fought them and cannot beat them no matter what I try. The only way I beat farsight was a dlord + c'tan + 10 pariahs but lets face it. If thats in your army your gonna phase out turn 2 anyway. As for abbadon there seems to be nothing that I can beat him with. Pariahs loose to I3, c'tan die to abbadon, liths ain't got ap2 ect, ect. Im gonna try 9 heavy destroyers and if that doesn't do it, 9 tomb spuiders.

This depends on the point game your playing,if your going to play say 1500 pt game you won't see abbadon or if you do the CSM army will suffer to some degree.

It would be easy for me to say X beats Y,but in a game like 40k it's all about the situation,just because you don't have the best unit in the game doesn't mean your at a dis-advantage aslong as the army performs well and is built well.

 

[Alzer]

Abbadon is capable of killing a C'tan but won't necessarily do so straight-up. C'tan can't insta-death him, but they are FAR better at wounding him than he is at wounding them, and they get saves.
C'tan 4+ to hit, 2+ to wound no saves allowed
Abbadon 3+(?) to hit, 4+ to wound 4+ save.

It would depend on the C'tan, and the exact situation but both Deceiver and Nightbringer have an advantage over Abbadon.

 

[the_pariah7]

Why be pessimistic about the fact that the C'tan can get killed more easily by certain units? In game, things do need to be balanced out.
Focus on the positives instead:
C'tan can insta-kill the majority of units in the WH40K universe
Can cut through vehicles like they were A4 paper
Anything that gets hit by a C'tan WILL take a wound due to denying ALL saves (necrodermis)
Players often have to spend more points just to be able to take out a C'tan easily.

In reference to Abaddon, a 2000pt investment needs to be made first before he can be taken. And a significant percentage of those points are allocated to him and the khornate termies.

 

[Dark Trainer]

Then you've never played the above units. Abbadon WILL kill a c'tan on the charge so the terminators don't even matter. Nob bikers S9 will kill one off. Farsight and co will kill it at range. Seer council will OWN it. And even kantor and his buddies can have a good go.


So far I can see liths deal with nob bikers well having tried it recently.

The marine terminators die to 40+ rapid firing warriors.

The farseer unit looses badly to pariahs and immortals (wounding on 2s anyone?)

But as for abbadon & co as well as farsight and bodyguard I have recently fought them and cannot beat them no matter what I try. The only way I beat farsight was a dlord + c'tan + 10 pariahs but lets face it. If thats in your army your gonna phase out turn 2 anyway. As for abbadon there seems to be nothing that I can beat him with. Pariahs loose to I3, c'tan die to abbadon, liths ain't got ap2 ect, ect. Im gonna try 9 heavy destroyers and if that doesn't do it, 9 tomb spuiders.

If they're firing all the heavy stuff at my Ctan, great...my 10 destroyers are shooting 30 S6 shots per turn, my warriors, wraiths and monolith are also unmolested to kill at will. As for things killing the Ctan...duh...there's plenty of S8+ weaponry, but toe to toe, the Ctan is fine. If you really want to whine, bring up Space Wolf rune priests and losing him to an initiative test. There goes 300 points with no effort...

 

[grantneodude]

I'm confused here Shas. Why don't 40+ rapid firing warriors kill Abbadon and crew just as well as they kill termies? 80 shots, 60 hits, 30 wounds, 5 dead 'Zerkers or so, and perhaps a wound on Abby. I've played against him once, admittedly not with 'Crons but I remember him being all but helpless outside of CC. Same goes for 'Zerkers, especially dual LC ones. What's the problem here?

 

[Dark Trainer]

I'm confused here Shas. Why don't 40+ rapid firing warriors kill Abbadon and crew just as well as they kill termies? 80 shots, 60 hits, 30 wounds, 5 dead 'Zerkers or so, and perhaps a wound on Abby. I've played against him once, admittedly not with 'Crons but I remember him being all but helpless outside of CC. Same goes for 'Zerkers, especially dual LC ones. What's the problem here?

I've thrown 80 shots at 5 termies before...and it's funny how all but 2 die. Because the number that hit, then the number that wound leaves fewer dice for them to actually roll against. Too much risk...

 

[the_pariah7]

I try to avoid having to use my warriors to shoot at them. Its a sheer volume of firepower that is wasted on a single unit. I'd be looking at taking out other units to ease the game for the long run. I'd only shoot at termies with them if they're right in your face or there are no other targets.

 

[Dark Trainer]

I try to avoid having to use my warriors to shoot at them. Its a sheer volume of firepower that is wasted on a single unit. I'd be looking at taking out other units to ease the game for the long run. I'd only shoot at termies with them if they're right in your face or there are no other targets.

I totally agree with you. It's when they deepstrike 12" away from you I usually get nervous....

 

[shas_on_u]

Abbaddon inflicts instant death and has 6+D6 attacks and goes first,

On the charge its a minimum 9 attacks, about 5-6 hits, 2-3 wounds, fail a save and die. The only way you will win is if he rolls a one and hurts himself. Like when I watched Kharn kill 6 khorne terminator champs, in his own unit lol.

And as for the point value, doesn't matter, if you can't kill a unit you can't kill it and you loose.