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hey im new to FB (40k player) and I got the dwarfs and a buddy of mine is getting the VC and hes telling me that dwarfs basically have no chance against them and the VC's are good at destroying them. Is this true and how would I go about dealing with them?



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Shrubs for the Blood God
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Your friend is suffering from the disease known as "New Armyitis", also known as "I Roxxor, You Suxxor Stupidity". The cure for this is to play against your friends VC with your Dwarfs and bring a couple of rune smiths with standard anti-magic loadouts a pimped lord or rune lord, 2 flamecannons, a couple bolt throwers and lots of Warriors, Quarrellers, and Thunderers. Administer the cure twice daily untill he stops saying stupid things.

In all honesty every time a new army comes out people start saying such stupid things, then in 3 or 4 months they realize...that hey, this is game of tactics and there is an answer for every armies uber unit. The ignorance of the statement "Dwarfs have no chance of winning" is astounding it the depth and width of stupidity that it encompases. Dwarfs are one of the most well rounded armies in the game, nobody insta-trumps us.

Let us know when you get around to playing games. If your just starting you'll probably lose a few games, but we can give you help and advice to reduce that learning curve. In no time at all you will be rekilling the undead. If that fails we'll all hop on a bus, come to your town and beat up your friend...all the while drinking lots of ale and singing songs... the Dwarf way.
 

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/botnobot/
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Friend, it sounds like your buddy is messing with you. :)

The new VC army looks pretty tough, so don't let your guard down. Even Dwarfs can auto-break from undead troops.

Still, Dwarfs are one of the toughest armies for VC to beat because of their high leadership, among other things.

Your weapon skill is superior across the board, and your toughness. You have very strong anti-magic, which you'll want to include.

Hammerers with a lord don't give a crap about fear or terror.

The new VC relies on the same thing as the old VC. Fear and outnumbering. Watch your flanks, make smart item and banner choices, like the standard that gives you double your unit size. It's hard to outnumber that.



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The new VCs are a very nasty list. They follow the trend that GW habeen going on buffing up the strengths of the new armies. With the drawback of points cost (I faced a High elf army with 20 spearmen, 10 Dragon princes, 5 silver helms, a ord on a star dragon, 2 lion chariots, and a scroll caddy wizard at 2000. That is a tiny army). A fully pimped out Vamp lords gonna run you over 500 points. The new counts also have a lot of ability to negate Dwarvern benefits, though a lot of these aren't new. Cheap fear causing units with a lot of mass running a nasty vamp inside will break your Dwarvern units just as easily as anything else. Some of this stuff is new. The ability to bring back knights and GG (Especially GG) help to limit our shooting. This is by no means the end all be all. If you know you are playing VCs a Dwarf army can build an army that is completely broken against them. Run enough anti magic (RUne lord, 2 smiths, MR of balance, a few spelleaters to each invocations) and you will cripple him. Stop him from ressurecting and he is going to loose.
 

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Shrubs for the Blood God
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I would disuade you from taking Stratigo advice on meta-gaming and building a list just to beat vampires. If you have to do that, then you haven't truely beaten your opponent. Almost any army can tailor make a list to defeat a certain foe, but this takes no skill...if you want to beat the VC do it with a balanced list.

Much of what Stratigo says about the VC abilities are true, but where he falls short is his assumption that the VC can make us run so easily. VC can be beaten by static rez. Dwarfs have the high Ld, T and armor to withstand a fear causing horde army and force the crumble, whats more is we have decent enough anti-magic to slow down a Vamp's IoK rate. Indeed, overall our army is one of the best suited to taking on the new VC.

I've been on these boards for a while and I've seen a lot of new/redone armies come out and the cries are always the same...we can't win!...boohoo boohoo, and in a few months it doesn't even matter anymore. Give little heed to anyone who tells you that your army is beat before you have even touched the table. A solid list and sound tactics are nessesary, but always remember that you arn't beat till after turn six and all the vp's are tallied.
 
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If anything I would say that Dwarfs are probably the best army to beat VCs with.

VC are very dependant on their magic-- dwarfs are the second best "anti magic" list in the game, maybe the best if you consider they don't have to dedicate themselves to it the way HEs do.

VC have no shooting, dwarfs have plenty. VCs have to come to Dwarfsand not the other way around.

VC rely on getting flanks and outnumbering. Dwarfs can take oath stones and pack in tight to make flanks almost non existent.

The main thing VCs have going for them vs dwarfs is just that they are maybe the only army that is more "relentless" than dwarfs. You will have a very hard time causing lasting casualties, and if they can use vanhel's, they can get to you quickly, whether you try to march block, use Wrath and Ruin, or anything else.

Just be aware of where those Grave guard and Blood Knights are, because those are the only things that can probably beat you in a head to head combat.
 

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The Dvl in Pale Moonlight
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I would disuade you from taking Stratigo advice on meta-gaming and building a list just to beat vampires. If you have to do that, then you haven't truely beaten your opponent. Almost any army can tailor make a list to defeat a certain foe, but this takes no skill...if you want to beat the VC do it with a balanced list.
Indeed.

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As for beating VC, I still go by the same principle.

1. Remove supporting units.

2. Remove units which are harder to raise(As opposed to before when I´d go after things which couldnt be raised).

3. Dont let him get through a danse mid-game, you probably can afford to let it through in the first turn. IoN should be the primary spell to stop in turn 1, possibly turn 2 if he runs an infantry army. The reason for this is if you target the "harder to raise units" first, stop as many IoNs as possible he will have a more difficult time to decide on the spells he should use later in the game. Heal or danse?

4. Hammers with lord or just RoCourage or RoStoic is your friend. I perfer RoStoic as we´ve got good LD and it will often remove the outnumbering factor from his units thus preventing autobreaks BUT its not only that. You also add the +1 CR for outnumbering and since we both want out static CR maxed this banner is a good tool.

5. Watch your flanks and rears(we like our static CR we dwarfs!)

Cheers
 
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The Pacifist Wargamer
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I try never to tailor my lists against specific opponents. I find it to be unsporting.

The good thing about the Dwarfs, if not the greatest thing about the Dwarfs, is that our strongest possible army is actually our most well-rounded army. Four or so blocks of infantry, two or so ranged units, two or so war machines, and a healthy loadout of characters makes for an army that has virtually no glaring weakness. The rest relies on clever generalship.

On paper, it would seem that the VCs have certain advantages over Dwarfs, and in some cases, it's true. The Dwarfs, however, have their own great set of advantages, one of them being the newness of the VC army.

The VC player doesn't know his army, and, because it's a new army, no one else does either, so there are fewer resources for him to turn to. The Dwarf player has years of advice and tactics to lean on while he learns as much as he can about the Vampires.
 

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danceman gave the single most important bit of advice against VC in my opinion, focus your fire not where it does most wounds but where it is hardest to heal.

This means in your shooting phase:
1/ Look for units you have a reasonable chance of removing completely.
2/ Target units like Black Knights, Swarms etc that only regain one wound from IoN.

Against many armies it is beneficial to knock a rank off to lower CR, this will not work against VC (due to Invocation).
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It's also important to get good at prioritising use of dispel dice and runes. Personally I will virtually never use by Spellbreaker runes in turn 1 / 2. Vampire Magic tends to become more dangerous later in the game when you're in combat and I want them for then.
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Where we can really put the hurt on VC is our combat blocks. They are normally reliant on CR to force opponents to flee, but units like IronBreakers and Warriors are very tough to shift.
In my opinion our Thanes / Lords make better combat characters than Vampires. It is easy for us to get 1+/2+ saves, Great Weapons and a Ward.
 

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Consumate professional
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What is great about fighting VC with Dwarfs (for me) is that their lack of shooting means i can take a big unit of slayers and not have to see them get whittled down as they jog towards the enemy lines. Against a fear causing army like VC a substantial unit of unbreakable hard-hitting nutters can really cause VC headaches- they just dont run away and man for man (or skellie for dwarf) they have massively superior stat lines in CC.

Oh yes, i do really love slayers
 

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/botnobot/
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I got my butt handed to me by VC the other night. My first game against the new book.

My magic resistance was useless, and IoN on a 3+ with the bloodline power really hurt. It made his eight power dice seems like 12 power dice.

And the helm of commandment on skeletons makes them pretty decent. They don't die as quickly and they actually land some blows.

10 Black Knights with the Drakenhoff banner is a lot to deal with, too.



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The Dvl in Pale Moonlight
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That banner is a tough nugget. War machines with flaming attacks works wonders here... well wonders might have been an overstatement but atleast gives a more satisfactory result. Fire = no regen = happy dwarf.

Those powers are quite annoying which makes it all the more important to make him use IoNs on units which doesnt fit the category of his master power, he could have several master powers but you´re more likely to see one and I´d say it will be the one of which he is deployed in/closest too and is of the greatest numbers.

VC magic phase is akin to TK only with VC it is on steroids. Forget trying to stop it all, all we can do is to try and figure out what and when to stop. I would go with IoNs in the beginning of the game, vanhels and other "special spells" in mid/endgame.

This might be static the obvious but I´m stating it anyways :)
 

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Acting XO of Tanith 1st
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playing the new VC myself and am looking towards dwarves as a second army mainly because i was so impressed by them. dwarves are the hardest to beat. They have insanely good shooting, their war machines can cause magical/flaming attacks (which are hell to my regen and ethereal units) and with the +2/+3 rolls to dispel makes nearly all bound spells useless and makes it tough to get off the resurection as i (and most VC) only use one die for it unless it's an absolute must. also the anvil of doom is just annoying to me, D3 units suffer magiucal attacks and then flyers can't fly? that means my bats have to move their measely 1" and my zombie dragon (it was a big game) had to march with all those war machines out there.

that being said, VC can best dwarves but chances are it'll be with an extreme list. either magic heavy or combat heavy.

and unbreakable units are hell for any undead as it takes away our greatest strength for our battle for attrition.
 

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The problem with VC unitsa is that a unit of skeletons will be running a hero almost every time. Or they should be. That one hero makes that unit sufficient to beat a warrior unit's static CR. So then Warriors can no longer run around alone, and I know of no dwarfy players that actually run enough heros that they throw them into every unit of warriors.

Magic, well vampires are a pain in the arse. Though I do get a giggle whenever I watch (well I've seen 2) a battle between tzeentchy demons and VCs. But with the prevalence of powerful magic is the new lists (High elves get nasty magic, though they don't require it, VCs get nasty magic and they rely on it, and Demons Can do nasty magic.) I'd say run some pretty serious anti magic constantly. A MR of balance at the very least.

Now then there is another problem that dwarves face when fighting counts, and that is we get stuck. Usually getting stuck is a good thing. But usually getting stuck means we'll start racking up CR and cause the enemy to break. Vampires, oh no. You are stuck forever and ever. In the first place Dwarves aren't a large number of hits army (Unless you have slayers. Hint slayers are one of the best units to use against vampires. though I rarely run the little nutcases) And in second we'll be getting, on average, maybe 3 CR more then a skeleton unit. We might even loose if there is a vampire or the helm of commandment is going on. Now the problem after that is that a vampire list is going to have more units then you (on average. If he's running a unit of blood knights, then not so much). So while your stuck there, crumbling skeletons, another unit of skeletons, or GG (Though they tend to be the front unit) or ghouls, or even dogs, will hit you on the side. You loose ranks, he gains a flank. You loose. Now then, if its an elite unit, then meh. Hammerers aren't running, Ironbreakers should have a banner to not run, Longbeards should have the same. And boom all those units are stuck in a muck. The VC will actually probably win just through attrition and raising, but it will take FOREVER. Baring bad dice (Bloody 11! Cost ME a tourniment will ya? Where's my book of grudges?). A unit of warriors of miners will break into tiny tiny peices though. And there in lies the problem. Though techniocally you don't need warriors, you probably should take them. And one gap in your lines will allow him to hit your guns or hit flanks and rears and just drag down your other units. That'll be how a VC player will beat you.

Now then, there are ways around it, but the ways are such that you wouldn't run it in a normal army. And that is the problem. Though I will be honest I only advocate tailoring a list to fight your enemies If you know said player either cheeses out a list, or tailors his armies too. Unfortunately that happens a lot at my store. A VC player will suddenly stick an anti shooting battle banner with his GG when I break out dwarves.

Though metagaming isn't exactly a correct term. Thinking it from a lore veiw point, why would an army be completely unaware of the enemy they face. And if they are aware, then why would they not gather forces that do well combating that enemy, but not so much against others. Armies don't just tend to run around looking for a fight, barring greenskins. They usually have an objective and an opponenent in mind.

Consequently I actually run 500 point increments from 2000 to 5000. I'll mix an macth, but that is it. I'll have that 2000 core of the army and then have additions, which will usually be the same unless I feel like testing out something.
 

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Kamikaze

This might seem a bit odd, but this tactic has worked wonders so far (3/3 against the new VC). Even better, if you have a balanced list you dont even need to modify it for it to work, although a bit of tweaking would improve your chances of course.

My tactic is simple: Put a dwarf lord on shieldbearers and fully kitted out (costs about 285-300 points) and stick him in a unit of hammerers. For extra nastiness add a BSB to that unit and the rune of battle. Take that unit, plump it right in front of his main vampire, and go kamikaze style right at it. so far the unit has beaten off Blood knights, grave guard with 3! vampires, and a CC Vamp with a grave guard unit. The lord kitted out for defense is simply too tough to kill in one turn, and will generally kill the vamp in the first round, two if you are unlucky. Even if he flanks you to delay you, not much beyond a full block of zombies will delay that unit more than a turn or two.

While he is concentrating on your unit marching straight at his lines, use longbeards, warriors, and whatever unit you use to come up and support it, all the while shooting the crap out of the fast elements of the army with organ guns and bolt throwers.

Oddly enough, most VC generals arent used to being on the defensive against dwarves, so taking the fight to them can cause them to panic. Plus a showdown between the generals is always cool.

As for magic defense, i only have 5 dispel dice and a scroll in my usual army.....just kill all the vamps before magic causes too much damage lol
 
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