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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
EDIT! -I'm changing this post as I go along- !TIDE

It’s intended to be usable against most opponents, and to be able to compete in a tournament regardless of scenario. I have no specific opponent in mind. I’ve made plans for how it’s going to look at 500, 1000 and 1500 points, although I’ve only got about 750 points or so collected so far. I’m planning to have enough points ready for a tournament this summer.


500 points:
2 Warrior Broods of 3 - 2 x 82
w. enhanced senses, 4 devourers, 1 barbed strangler, 1 scything talons.

3 Gaunt Broods of 8 - 3 x 40
w. spinefists

2 Spore Mine clusters of 1 – 2 x 12
w. bio-acid

Spore Mine cluster of 1 – 8
w. frag

Carnifex - 128
w. enhanced senses, barbed strangler, twin-linked devourer, spine banks.

Biovore brood of 1 - 55
w. bio-acid mines

Total – 500 points

At 500 points I'm back to a previous configuration. I'm depending on the gaunts to keep the rest out of reach of cc, while they shoot from cover.


1000 points:
Hive Tyrant - 139
w. enhanced senses, toxin sac, barbed strangler, twin-linked devourer, psychic scream.

3 Warrior Broods of 3 – 3 x 82
w. enhanced senses, 4 devourers, 1 barbed strangler, 1 scything talons.

Gaunt Brood of 9 – 45
w. spinefists

3 Gaunt Broods of 8 – 3 x 40
w. spinefists

Genestealer Brood of 6 – 102
w. feeder tendrils

3 Spore Mine clusters of 1 – 3 x 12
w. bio-acid

2 Carnifexes – 2 x 128
w. enhanced senses, barbed strangler, twin-linked devourer, spine banks.

Biovore brood of 1 - 55
w. bio-acid mines

Total – 999 points

I’m expecting to have trouble against high AV vehicles, but I’m hoping those won’t be cost effective enough to get too big an advantage even if they come in great numbers at this point level. I’ve added genestealers as a counter-charge unit to compliment my gaunt broods (that are there to halt enemy cc units). I’m hoping I will have sufficient long range firepower to compete even if I’m slow.

1500 points:
Hive Tyrant - 171
w. enhanced senses, toxin sac, 2 twin-linked devourers, wings, psychic scream.

Hive Tyrant - 139
w. enhanced senses, toxin sac, barbed strangler, twin-linked devourer, psychic scream.

3 Warrior Broods of 3 – 3 x 82
w. enhanced senses, 4 devourers, 1 barbed strangler, 1 scything talons.

5 Gaunt Broods of 8 – 5 x 40
w. spinefists

Genestealer Brood of 7 - 119
w. feeder tendrils

Warrior Brood of 3 - 150
w. enhanced senses, toxin sacs, wings, 4 devourers, 1 barbed strangler, 1 scything talons.

2 Spore Mine clusters of 1 – 2 x 12
w. bio-acid

2 Carnifexes – 2 x 128
w. enhanced senses, barbed strangler, twin-linked devourer, spine banks.

Zoanthropes of 3 - 195
w. 3 psychic scream, 3 warp blast.

Total – 1500 points

At this point I’ve invested in a choir. Also, I’ve kept the better part of my fast element from the previous list.

Do you think this army selection will live up to my expectations, of being able to compete against most opponents?
 

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Since you're a beginner at 'nids, i know you have a bunch of tactical mistakes so here's what i have to say:
-take the rending and leaping off of the warriors. with 'nids, you have to align them with a certain strategy and since you're pouring pts into shooting, give them cheap scything talons and try to give them extended carapace.
-One both the fexs and the tyrants, you have short and long range guns. Give the fex a Barbed + venom cannon or (duel venom cannons) and the tyrant 2XTL devourers. also consider giving the fex an extra wound to survive lascannons and the like.
-take the guns off of the flying warriors and give them scything talons for more rending attacks. take off enhanced senses and give them +1 WS and +1 I. and also consider giving some of them lash whips to protect them from counter attack units and their numerous attacks.
-get rid of the bio-acid spore mines. They're extremely useless, so i'd get another biovore which gets will allow the unit to get 4 mines a turn instead of 1.
-another problem is that you have very few bodies and those small broods of gaunts will die quickly. i'd drop a tyrant and a warrior brood from the elites to add more gaunts and particularly termagaunts since this seems to be a shooty list.
-consider getting lictors to tie up heavy weapon units while you close in for the kill.

hope this helps, i just don't want another beginner making the mistakes i made.8Y
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thanks Mr. X :)
Could I bother you with a question tho? What load-out did you try exactly that went bad, and what happened to make you realize it was shite? In other words, how did you loose?
 

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Most of my mistakes happened when i got my bigger nids like the warriors, carnifex, and tyrant. I made them all good at close combat and shooting because i wanted them to have everything that i thought was cool. Then, after i played a few games against orks, i realized i had spent too much on upgrades and not enough on bodies. Now i know that you only give the upgrades you need so that that they're good at one role. tyranids are meant to be played as one huge swarm where every unit complements and supports another so that everytime an opponent tries to do something, there's a unit to counter it. and as each unit has one objective, you won't have to worry about what they should do to make back their points. cheers:drinking:
 

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You seem to be in love with barbed strangler. Even though it is a very good gun I'd not use it with the devourer. The main function of the barbed strangler on non fex models are pinning. You're most likely to shoot at models with armour save of 3+ or better with the devourer just because that nids don't have a weapon that can penetrate that kind of armour and therefore you have to make him roll more rolls instead (I don't know how much you know about warhammer therefore my explanations might sound a bit dumb if you have played before). The barbed strangler vs good armour save will rarely wound and therefore its not good in this situation. shootly vs armour are usually better the more devourers you get. I consider the barbed strangler to be good when mixed with deathspitters. As most models you shoot at with deathspitters are models with bad saves and thus negating them their saves. When you hit with barded strangler then it's a guaranteed pin, as they have the same AP value. So warriors with devourers are usually best with either venom cannon to make them able to kill light vehicles or just more devourers. Deathspitter warriors with barbed strangler will rock anything with armour save 5+ or less.
I agree with xhivetyrantx that sporemines and biovores arn't that impressive in 4th ed and thus the points can be better spent elsewhere. At smaller pts such as 500 you can try out Ravengers, a lictor or smal broods of gargoyles. I find gaunt broods are best at 12-16 models, they can be effective and they're still maneuverable.
The venom cannon is the best shooting weapon for a tyrant so use it! For fexes venom cannons are a but when it comes to tank busting, otherwise devourers for most anti skimmer/infantry. Besides enhanced senses I consider chitin and AG(i) to be the most important biomorphs for a fex.
I don't think I've said it before to a nid list but. Your lists lack CC. You have some good shootly units but you don't have any good CC units. I strongly recommend that you include at least one unit that excel at CC in every list. The best unit for this task is obviously the genestealer. second to it IMO the ravenger. Lictors excel in taking out vehicles and smal units near cover. CC warriors seemes good on paper but stealers preforms better than warriors points/effectiveness. CC warriors usually are there to give support to homagaunts.
In your 1500pts list, I'd change the heavy fexes to have venom cannon and barbed strangler and replace the biovore with the zoanthropes. Be aware of AP3 weapons on your flyrant!
On your winged warriors. Even if toxin sacs + fleshborers combo are very effective offensive, winged warriors can't survive ranged fire any good at all so usually winged warriors are CC builds just because CC are that much safer for them. A word of warning on bioplasma! if you are only in base contact with one model and that one model gets killed by bioplasma then you will not continue CC and use the rest of your attacks. Because of that many nid players don't use bioplasma. The only real good use of bioplasma comes when you're hunting skimmers as it'll always hit on 4+! instead of using warriors then use gargoyels (more bioplasma attacks/pts).

wow that's a lot of rant... hope it helped :p
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
It does. :)
I'm revising my list again, focusing some shooty warriors to be even more shooty at expense of cc, while I'm contemplating making my leaping warriors better at cc. I'm lothe to make them purly cc because there is no guarantee I'll be engaged in cc, and that would make them sort of dysfunctional.

I'm also contemplating dropping both leap and the biovore for more shooty warriors. That could mean 3 warrior broods at 500 pts.
 

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It does. :)
I'm revising my list again, focusing some shooty warriors to be even more shooty at expense of cc, while I'm contemplating making my leaping warriors better at cc. I'm lothe to make them purly cc because there is no guarantee I'll be engaged in cc, and that would make them sort of dysfunctional.

I'm also contemplating dropping both leap and the biovore for more shooty warriors. That could mean 3 warrior broods at 500 pts.
Oh I can assure you that you will NOT be disappointed if you get genestealers/ravengers/CC warriors into close combat. They'll usually slaughter that unit! I can tell you that in one game (ok it was in 2nd ed but stealers and marines stat haven't changed that much) two genestealers took out a whole 6 ultramarine devestator squad! Another game (4th ed) 3 CC warriors and some hormagaunts as shield (exploit the 3" rule) took out 8 terminators. (3rd ed) 2 ravengers took out 8 fire warriors (I have no idea how they managed to survive all the way). (4th ed) broodlord + 6 stealers took out 1 master + 4 terminators, a tactical squad and a rihno. So they don't have to be many to deal with foes in CC.
I'm sorry to say that nid units are usually at their best when tooled to a specific task. The only unit I've found that have multiple uses are flying devourer tyrant. It is both good at shooting and CC.
 

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There! Does that seem better? :)
I for one don't think it is better. As most of the things I pointed out are still there. For example the only weapons in your lists are still devourers and barbed stranglers and you still use them in combo as if there were the best weapons in this game, there is no one weapon that will simply be 'best', as I see it your list will be good against standard marine type units the 1-2 turns you will be in range, before that you will be out gunned and after that your will probably loose in CC. I took a look on your lists and it took me about 5 seconds to think of pretty standard eldar lists that will have guaranteed win against you. Either falcon heavy lists or wraithlord heavy lists. You don't have anything that can counter that. In fact that you choose to play tyranids and NOT having CC units is a sign of wrong fraction for your play style. Tyranids need CC as they excel in it, their shooting is avarage at best compared to most other fractions. So you can't out shoot them, specially not on a tournament where everyone will play to win.
I'm sorry if I sound a bit too harsh but I don't think you have failed to understand how the Tyranids plays. Well regardless of that I'll try to give you advice on your lists.

500 :
Warriors: Why barbed strangler after my earlier post? If you have a valid point then please share it with the rest of us. I'd just stick another devourer in there. Or better yet if you really want to include a strangler... make a spitter brood with a strangler if you want to balance them out for the tournament. Extended carapace! Do you realize how many AP5 weapons there are?
Gaunts: Fine although I like them when they're in bigger broods. 8 are most of the time too few when they reach CC. (NO gaunts aren't meant to do anything besides die)
Carnifex: the strangler are only good as extra punch to VCs. So I'd swap the devourers for a VC as you already have lots of devourers. Citin is the best defensive biomorph for a carnifex.
Spore mines/biovore: They're so underpowered that it is probably the absolutely last unit I'm going to include into a list. If you want to use them then be my guest but I'd buy some actual good CC models with those pts.

1000 :
Tyrant: Why waste 3 good VC shoots to something that may (and that's a BIG MAY) cause pinning?
stealer: nice to see something capable of CC. But extended carapace is the most important biomorph to stealers as they will die to most of the basic fraction (AP5) weapons.
Warriors/spore mines/biovore: same as 500pts.

1500 :
stealers: You need more stealers as it's a bigger game!
flying warriors: They're going to get shoot down so fast. As you don't have any homagaunts present you don't really need flying warriors. Why not get more stealers instead?
I'd ditch one fex and have a brood of zoanthropes with psychic scream and warp blast.
Same comments apply to the rest as above.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 · (Edited)
Thank you for your feedback Zhaf. :)
I’ll break up your questions and advice in quotes, so that it becomes apparent what I’m answering or commenting.


For example the only weapons in your lists are still devourers and barbed stranglers and you still use them in combo(…)
But I do think they are a great combo!.. Granted, the barbed strangler aren’t near as cost effective as the devourer, but what it’s got is twice the range. With lots of barbed stranglers I’m outranging the anti-infantry capabilities of Tau, for instance. I’m also hoping bs will make my list very solid against armies that have big infantry units with crap armour, such as orks and other tyranids. The reason I believe bs and devourers compliment each other well is because they are the same S, and therefore work on the same target. Devourers are highly efficient, but suffers from lack of range. BS makes up for that weakness without loosing punch at short range. The pin is just a bonus, but a really helpful one. At 500 pts I can expect to be forcing 2 pin tests each round, making for 12 tests over 6 rounds if I’m playing stable and don't loose my pinners. If all targets had Ld 10 that would be one successful pin each game on average. Not a gamebreaker at all, but a nice bonus. Against targets with lower Ld however, the pins will start getting painful.


I took a look on your lists and it took me about 5 seconds to think of pretty standard eldar lists that will have guaranteed win against you. Either falcon heavy lists or wraithlord heavy lists. You don't have anything that can counter that.
Yes, skimmers are my biggest weakness in terms of counter measures. I’m dependant on getting behind them to have a fair chance, wich is wishful thinking. Wraithlords however will go down in one turn to my genestealers in 1000/1500 pts. What makes me confident those units in particular won’t bother me much is that they are both terribly inefficient in terms of firepower/cost. In both cases I should be able to ignore them at all point levels, and just kill the rest of his army. Fireprisms scare me far more.


In fact that you choose to play tyranids and NOT having CC units is a sign of wrong fraction for your play style. Tyranids need CC as they excel in it, their shooting is average at best compared to most other fractions. So you can't out shoot them, specially not on a tournament where everyone will play to win.
I think that’s taking it a bit far. We have good cc, but not the best. Orks, for instance, crush us in cc. My previous list had warriors that was good enough to take marines and high AV eldar (even wraithlords) in cc, but their shooting suffered. Since I want my Tyranids to shoot well, I’ve opted to forgo cc in this list, instead using the gaunts as a buffer against other cc lists. The one unit of Genestealers is there to support them. If I want my list to be cc oriented, I should build it for that, not for shooting as I have done. I don’t subscribe to the belief that a Tyranid list need to be cc oriented to be successful. I’m constantly toying with the idea of including more cc, but for now I’ve decided to stay focused, and rather make my shooters more mobile that including expensive counter-cc.


The reason I’m not using EC, is that I plan to use cover extensively. In most cover, EC becomes pointless, and in terms of cost they are anything but point-less. EC on all warriors and Gaunts in 500 pts will cost 42 pts. My shooting range will hopefully permit me to have all essential units in cover most of the game, making my army that much more cost efficient. If the Biovore is a mistake, letting EC go will make up for it alone, as long as I manage to stick to the plan.

In regard to bs and vc, I enjoy the opposite view of your own. VC, while being our best tank-killer, is a horrible weapon for tank-killing if you compare it to the wpns of other races and its cost. Bs on a carnifex however, is one of the very best troopkillers in the game. I’m trying to focus on doing what my army is good at, instead trying to live with our weaknesses. At this point level, most mechanized armies are horribly cost inefficient in terms of firepower, therefore I’m theorycrafting that I can live with less nutcrackers. I may be mistaken of course, but I’m a bit set on deviating from the rather common sniperfex.

Spore mines and biovores will do little, yes. But they also cost so very little, and they have so very many purposes. They add even more range, when they miss they become bodies on the table that force target priority, they cause enough damage for their point cost, they add nutcracker abilities that by far surpasses their cost, they add pin, and they add force selections giving me strategic advantage during setup. I may be making a mistake here, but I’m kind of set on trying them out in low point games, despite their notoriety.

Tyrant VC is horrible in terms of cost efficiency. You’re making it as expensive as can be without making it any good when compared to other races. The way I see it, the Tyrant is an ace at infantry-killing, but a mediocre tank-killer at best. Double set of devourers on a 6” walker equals a range problem, so bs again becomes the equalizer. Pinnig is just a bonus that is starting to accumulate some at this point level. This way it’s also a decent low AV skimmer killer.




The flying warriors are vulnerable, yes. If I’m unable to control or at least navigate my opponent lines of fire, they are done for as you pointed out. If, however, I can keep them alive, they should become real dangerous really quick. The reason I pick a brood of flyers instead of more devourer warriors for the other broods is that of range again. It may be I’m too hung up on it, but as it stands right now I would rather have better control of range than more firepower on a somewhat immobile short range. This is the only unit I’m really uncertain if should be mounted with a bs, as their speed makes the bs range less necessary.

I’m thinking really hard about the zoanthropes you mentioned, though. It could be their screams might be worthwhile, and they are nutcracker enough between each other to take over that role from the sniperfex. It would be one less fex-bs though. I’m inclined to let myself tempt into trying.


Anyway, thanks again for your advice Zhaf :)
 

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devourer+stragler: yeah one shot hitting on 4+ and they get their saves. That is a BIG if it will be worth it. Against "crap" armour deathspitters would be much better. From my experience though, don't ever expect to pin against models that are granted save against the strangler.

Falcons and wraithlords: I don't really like how you build tournament lists. In a tournament you HAVE to be prepared to go up against anything. You loose one battle and you're out therefore you simply can't just hope for not meeting an opponent with no skimmers. On to wraithlords. Yes stealers absolutely overkills them in CC. But you got one brood in 1k and 1.5k games. What makes you think that they will ever reach CC if it's the only thing that's advancing? What would you do if you meet a wraithlord at 500pts? I've seen a decent amount of 500pts lists with 2-3 wraithlords.

CC or not: Does it have to be either CC or shootly? No I've never suggested that you drop all ranged and go CC now have I? I said that you need a bit more CC to be more effective. A pure CC or shootly list will fall quickly. I have tested both. You can't out shoot tau, yes some of our guns are better than some of theirs but ultimately they are better at ranged than us. And as you said you can't out do orks with pure CC but try to stick a few deathspitter warriors in and see the difference. You have to get a more balanced list if you're serious about winning a tournament.

500 : What if you're not getting the side with good cover? What if there aren't any good over on the entire board? You rely too much on chance. When creating a tournament list the only thing I leave to chance are dice rolls.
On VC yes it's a bad tank killer. But who said anything about tank killing? It got a much greater chance of crippling a tank than a strangler. If tanks are you weak spot to begin with why not do something about it? Taking out a tanks weapons or immobilize it if far better than to do nothing about it. A few Vypers or Landspeeders can harass your list from turn one, 4+ per brood to hit that? That'll be a lot of fire focusing on one target. And as I said before don't get your hopes up with strangler and troops that gets save.

1000 : Again why talk in extremes? either 1 or 0? And as I said earlier Tyranids don't rely on tank killing with ranged weapons. The aim is to cripple their tanks and transports. With a strangler the tyrant isn't going to kill either tank or infantries. I'd rather pay a bit more to get a awesome skimmer and tank crippler! For just 20pts more you can get rid of a lot of your skimmer problems.

1500 : Well that's 200pts in a big IF again. The way I see it is the easiest 200VP in warhammer history.

Well I'd gladly give you feedback but I feel that you have your vision of how things are already set in stone. And you're somewhat unwilling to listen to criticism. But oh well the best way to find out if your list works as you wanted or not would just to play. Maybe it's I who am wrong and your list works well against the opponents in your area. My experience are only from playing against players in my area and from reading in this forum for a couple of years.
God luck.
 
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