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Discussion Starter #1
Okay, this is all in reference to Cold Ones, but I thought the "Cavalry in 8th Ed" thing would get the most attention. I had heard that cavalry only has a place for hunting war machines. I disagree strongly! I run 12 Cold One Riders with spears and full command, and it works wonders. I will admit that you can't take on a horde with it, but why would you? You gotta pick your battles, so take on that 25 man unit of whatever isn't a Chaos Warrior regiment!

12 Cold Ones are a great hammer unit if you have an enemy unit already stuck in combat with an anvil, and on top of that, it acts as a tarpit unit all by itself! I don't know how many Lizardmen players run with Cold Ones, but I know I do! I recently came to the realization that I don't need the big dinosaurs like a Stegadon, because I have this awesome unit! Yes, the Initiative value is low, but when you look at the fact that it is 2A at S4 (S5 on the charge) per model, and then another 2A at S4 for the Cold One, I think this unit speaks volumes! Are there better ways to use your points for SPECIAL choices? Probably, but I already have a unit of 26 TG to surround my Slann, so what else would I need? Kroxigor? Puh-leeeese!!! I can run those in my CORE choices if I wanted a horde of Skinks.

This might seem like a tirade, but it just seems like some players out there are so ready to give up on Cavalry and put them in the category of "artillery hunters".

So, with that off of my chest...do you guys run Cold Ones? Do you dismiss them for a dinosaur? I wouldn't mind hearing your opinions on the matter.

Also, things to consider: if you use High Magic, "Walk Between Worlds" can get a unit of Cold Ones in position to obliterate the enemy from their side of the table, and if you use Life, then "Flesh of Stone" makes a tough unit to break against the majority of units in the game!

I also apologize for the amount of exclamation points found in this post!

But seriously, do you all feel like cavalry have lost all their power? Or is everyone just wanting something else to fill the gap?
 

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You are right that many probably think lower of cavalry than is their true power, due to how good they were in 7th Ed. Perhaps you weren't around then but I'll remind you of the difference.

There was no Steadfast. Combat resolution through kills could break huge units of infantry.
In the turn of the charge initiative was ignored, the charger got to go first (except against ASF which was very rare).
There was no Step Up, so Cavalry could happily charge into high strength enemies, kill the front rank, and take no damage back.
There were no Supporting Attacks. Supporting Attacks are best for units with many ranks, Cavalry are bad in many ranks. Also, mounts don't get Supporting Attacks.
Charge was always double your movement, not random. Generally a nerf to fast units that were good on the charge.
There was no Stomp. Stomp was a huge buff to monsters and cavalry missed out. The fact that cavalry are a counter to stomp has kinda been overlooked.

These nerfs are ingrained upon the veteran players mind even though a reanalysis could see mass cavalry end the effectiveness of Lizardmen skirmishers that some complain about.

In the right army I love cavalry. Give me 30 Knightly Orders with 8 Demigryphs and Heavens magic to buff them any day.

Brettonians can also trick some more armies by taking a unit of cavalry with 6 ranks (15 knights of the realm + 3 characters). Other armies just redirect, then charge it and kill them all however.

Chaos Knights are good, but they are "attrition Cav" not shock cav. If Cold Ones had 1+ armour they could be used similarly, but they are stuck at 2+, so any S4 infantry units and its dog will out attrition you. I wish they had given them light armour like temple guard instead of +1 attack, or keep both upgrades and increase the points to 40.

but when you look at the fact that it is 2A at S4 (S5 on the charge) per model, and then another 2A at S4 for the Cold One, I think this unit speaks volumes!
4A from the front rank, 1A from the 2nd. Why should I take more than ~7 in a unit?

Also, things to consider: if you use High Magic, "Walk Between Worlds" can get a unit of Cold Ones in position to obliterate the enemy from their side of the table, and if you use Life, then "Flesh of Stone" makes a tough unit to break against the majority of units in the game!
You haven't convinced me why it is better to buff Cold Ones instead of regular Saurus or Temple Guard. Any unit is good with infinite buffs, but will the Cold Ones survive in the turn you fail to get them off? And do they really benefit more from the buffs than other units?

I think the battlefield role of cavalry is anti-chaff and anti-monster. However, Lizardmen have the best anti-chaff+anti-monster chaff and the best anti-monster monsters (Sharpened Horns still explodes my brain).
 

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Discussion Starter #3
You do have a very good counterpoint. I was around for 7th Ed a tad bit (did most of my playing in 6th Ed). I guess I lost sight of what was lost when this edition gave us supporting attacks, horde formations, and the ability to fight back even with ranks of troops being butchered. I think the game system has improved on a lot of things. Perhaps I need to play against more monsters with these guys. So far though, they seem to work for me. I might also need to see about rolling with just 7 as you mentioned to see if there's much of a difference. If there isn't, then that would free up points for something else.

Too bad we didn't get any Monstrous Cav.
 

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Yeah, Elves are saying the same thing about Monstrous Cavalry,and you can have our Skullcrushers when you pry them from our cold dead hands.

On the other hand, if Chaos Warriors could equip Quick-to-Fire Bazookas, then of course I, personally, would be cool with everyone getting Monstrous Cavalry.
 

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Yeah Demi's are pretty awesome, but Skullcrusher charges are the stuff of legends.
 

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Hooray!! Other people with common sense and a brain when it comes to 8th ed cavalry!

It's quite sad that my local GW, which is remarkably empty of the majority of snap opinions of the internet for some bizarre reason, is still guilty of the whole "Cavalry sucks" bar one or two exceptions. It's a weird phenomenon....

I personally love my cavalry (I'm not a Lizardman player, but my elves are on Cold Ones...). I find a lot of the people who say "Cavalry sucks" are the people who played one or two games of 8th using cavalry as they did in 7th: running 5-7 knights of some description into the front of 40 men and being surprised when they get their ass handed to them.
It's obvious to say, but cavalry work best charging into flanks or the rear of an enemy unit that is bogged down in combat. A unit size of 10-12 makes for a decent punch as well as being able to deny Steadfast (until you go under 10). I ran two units of 9 with Malus Darkblade and a Master under the previous DE book for a fair few games and it obliterated Ogres, Tomb Kings and WoC with punitive ease (although it folded against High Elves because I managed to fail 7 Leadership Checks in my first two turns (with re-rolls) and my all that remained of my army were 4 Bolt Throwers and a Hydra).

Personally I'm glad DE didn't get Monstrous Cavalry. We don't need it and it would be in competition with Cold One Knights, Chariots and the rest of Special.

But yeah, 10-12 for a unit of cavalry for breaking flanks, smaller units can be used for harrying, distraction, or threatening the back line.
 

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Cold one cav are awesome. To be fair most cav are good, its just using them right that is the issue. A unit of 10 Chaos Knights are going to ruin a unit or two, while a bret lance can break steadfast units in some cases and wipe them out in one round.
 

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It's obvious to say, but cavalry work best charging into flanks or the rear of an enemy unit that is bogged down in combat.
So do any unit.

A unit size of 10-12 makes for a decent punch as well as being able to deny Steadfast (until you go under 10).
This is false. Flanking only denies rank bonus, not steadfast.
 

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Hooray!! Other people with common sense and a brain when it comes to 8th ed cavalry!

It's quite sad that my local GW, which is remarkably empty of the majority of snap opinions of the internet for some bizarre reason, is still guilty of the whole "Cavalry sucks" bar one or two exceptions. It's a weird phenomenon....
I've run a pure Cavalry force for my WoC for about a year now and it's hated by my Gaming club. Cavalry rocks but it's hard to work with and certainly has some better things to come up against. It actually works better against Elite armies like Ogres or Chaos because it doesn't have to worry so much about steadfast as it usually breaks through that in a turn or two. I'm not so sure how well it will work against Skaven, Undead or O&G. Hell, my own O&G massacred a similar Chaos Cav list.

However that's Chaos Cav and that can just grind through anything in subsequent rounds of combat. Some armies cavalry, such as Brets, Empire, Orcs and HE rely on the charge for their damage. If they get bogged down they're toast unless something comes and helps out. Saraus Cav might be all right due to the sheer amount of str4 attacks they chuck out but against anything with high toughness and armour they might get bogged down. You certainly have to be more selective of your targets with the weaker races cavalry.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Other factors to the effectiveness of Cav units might also be whether they cause Fear? A lot of cav out there don't cause fear, but your more elite cav units either do or are immune (Frenzy, for example). Ld 8 with Cold Blooded is pretty handy too. Predatory Fighter is handy, but not always reliable.

I haven't played against Empire or done research on them in 8th Ed, but the Demigryphs look pretty awesome. My shop has a tourney next month and one of the players has an all cav Empire army with a unit of 8 Demigryphs (I think it was 8 and not 6 because I was wondering what he did with the 3rd Model). Anyway, not to say he will use that same list next tourney, but if I face him, what problems would I be facing besides Stomp and probably Fear?)

Also, Ravenblade said he runs a unit of 10-12 Cold Ones, so maybe that's the magic number for us? Antithesis posted about 4 Crushers and Lord (MoK on Daemonic Steed) as the best Hammer, so maybe that's the best for Warhammer (the Post backed up by modern science and technology suggests so!). In Colorado I saw a guy with hundreds of Spider Riders. (Don't know how effective an all Spider Army is, but the units were ridiculously deep in ranks.)

So I think we can all agree that either players who hate Cav are using them wrong, or not enough of them in a unit.
 

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Other factors to the effectiveness of Cav units might also be whether they cause Fear?
Fear is very unreliable. Many enemies are immune. Most enemies will pass the test.

I haven't played against Empire or done research on them in 8th Ed, but the Demigryphs look pretty awesome. My shop has a tourney next month and one of the players has an all cav Empire army with a unit of 8 Demigryphs (I think it was 8 and not 6 because I was wondering what he did with the 3rd Model). Anyway, not to say he will use that same list next tourney, but if I face him, what problems would I be facing besides Stomp and probably Fear?)
The main problem with Empire cav spam list is that literally the whole army has a 1+ save and is M7 Swiftstride. Anything lower than strength 5 is pretty useless against mass 1+ armour. However, any non-Demigryph units of his are also quite useless when not charging.

In my opinion Lizardmen are horribly bad against that type of Empire army. Try to get some points of him and stay alive.

Also, Ravenblade said he runs a unit of 10-12 Cold Ones, so maybe that's the magic number for us?
I dispute that heavily. He was under the mistaken impression that disrupting ranks = cancelling steadfast. That is not true. Furthermore, he is talking about Dark Elf Cold One Knights which are slightly different. They are slightly better at supporting attacks than Saurus Cold One Cavalry, so there is more merit to deploying the Elves in deeper units.

Antithesis posted about 4 Crushers and Lord (MoK on Daemonic Steed) as the best Hammer, so maybe that's the best for Warhammer (the Post backed up by modern science and technology suggests so!).
Crushers are Monstrous Cavalry which is a totally different unit type.

In Colorado I saw a guy with hundreds of Spider Riders. (Don't know how effective an all Spider Army is, but the units were ridiculously deep in ranks.)
They are a pretty atrocious unit. Deployed in ranks they are basically very expensive goblins that can move slightly faster and cast 4 times as much.

Furthermore, spider riders are Fast Cavalry, not real combat cavalry like Saurus.
 

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I have lots of cav only lists my dark elves my high elves, brets and empire all are very effective my empire is 3 units of 14 knights with great weapons priest in each and a Lvl 4 light for biros and speed of light for 2 attacks 10ws i10 double movement :) elves similar units brets 15 Lance breaks most things dark elves little different my doom locks drop tough to pummel units with my rxb until my cold ones and chariots hit home
 

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So do any unit.
Yes, but cavalry are the best at getting into positions to charge flanks and rears because of their maneuverability.


This is false. Flanking only denies rank bonus, not steadfast.
My bad, I meant rank bonus. But 10-12 is still the optimum size for cavalry vs infantry I have found. The exception are Chaos Knights, 5 of them will do the job.
And yes, the vast majority of my experience comes from Dark Elf Cold One Knights, but I have had a few games with Lizardmen Saurus Cavalry. What I found with them is they give a nice bit of pace into a relatively slow army.
 

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Yes, but cavalry are the best at getting into positions to charge flanks and rears because of their maneuverability.
Monsters and Flyers can flank just fine to though. For example no Lizard player is going to drop Stegs and no Empire player is going to drop Demigryphs because they "need more flankers".

But 10-12 is still the optimum size for cavalry vs infantry I have found.
I don't think that claim has much weight.

The back rank of models give (Saurus Cav) the following offensive properties in addition to having double the wounds:
21% more attacks (25% if the rules are Errata'd so that Supporting Attacks can proc Predatory Fighter)
Combat resolution (+1CR from ranks, up to +3CR by disrupting)
Steadfast against things with 1 rank or fewer

I would argue that:
The extra attacks don't justify the cost. 100% extra cost (actually a little less than 100% depending on command set up) for 21% more damage is almost certainly worse than getting a second unit of the same size.
The Combat Resolution is useless. For the combat resolution to matter you need to be either; losing combat or winning combat against a non-steadfast enemy.
The Steadfast is useless unless you are losing combat (against a very small unit or monster) by enough that an unmodified test is too risky, but aren't taking enough casualties to remove said steadfast... That seems almost mutually exclusive to me.

Don't take a unit of 12, take 2 units of 7. I believe in theory that is stronger, especially for their role.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Supporting attacks can produce more attacks from Predatory Fighter (nothing in the Army book to say otherwise at least. Don't know if there was something else out there saying it couldn't.)

I'm still going to defend the 12 model unit of Cold Ones because of what I have seen with them in my own games. I have not fought against Warriors of Chaos or Ogres, but fighting against High Elves, Slaanesh Daemons, and VC, they did pretty well. I used them as a supporting unit, or as an anvil against a smaller unit (25 Skeletons for example). 2x units of 7 might work out just as well, but I honestly think you and I are going to be on the opposite side of the fence on this. You are using a small unit of cavalry in an orthodox role under the current rules set by supporting with flanks and chasing down war machines. I am using a larger block to tarpit and support other units with a flank attack.

A full command and the extra rank give me more of an advantage than a unit of 7, so it helps to tarpit smaller units. 7 models will have 28 attacks (assuming there's no champion), while my unit pumps out 30 attacks. (This is probably the exact wrong way to figure out probability but...30 divided by 6 is 5. So potentially 35 attacks.)

All I'm saying is that you shouldn't just give up on Cavalry just yet.

On another note, the guy at the game store that had given up on Cavalry (and thus prompting this post) also tried to convince me to run my spearmen in a horde formation. I found this didn't work during the store's last tournament, so I run 42 spearmen in a 7x6 block. This packs quite the punch! With this being said, perhaps Lizards have decent cavalry and foot soldiers and so can operate in an unorthodox fashion? Just theory, of course.

Anyway, I guess the best thing to do is for me to try 2x units of 7 and you guys could try a unit of 12 with FC and Spears.
 

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Supporting attacks can produce more attacks from Predatory Fighter (nothing in the Army book to say otherwise at least. Don't know if there was something else out there saying it couldn't.)
Page 47 of the BRB:

"(a warrior using supporting attacks) can only ever make a single Attack, regardless of the number of Attacks on his profile, or any bonus Attacks he might otherwise be entitled to because of special rules or other unusual effects."

The Lizardmen book simply calls for 6s to cause the warrior to "immediately make another attack" which seems pretty expressly forbidden by the above BRB rule in the case of supporting attacks.

You are using a small unit of cavalry in an orthodox role under the current rules set by supporting with flanks and chasing down war machines. I am using a larger block to tarpit and support other units with a flank attack.
I don't think there are enough situations where Cold Ones are more effective tarpits than regular Saurus to justify that role for me.

7 models will have 28 attacks (assuming there's no champion), while my unit pumps out 30 attacks. (This is probably the exact wrong way to figure out probability but...30 divided by 6 is 5. So potentially 35 attacks.)
My count is 28 base that can all predatory vs 31 base (you forgot your champion?), 25 of which can predatory. That ends up normally being ~33.67 vs ~35.17. But the units are different widths so I don't think the comparison is very fair.

All I'm saying is that you shouldn't just give up on Cavalry just yet.
As I said, I haven't given up on all cavalry, I am just very critical of their effectiveness. If you want to win you should be critical of all potential selection. 7 cav is already almost a Steg of points.

On another note, the guy at the game store that had given up on Cavalry (and thus prompting this post) also tried to convince me to run my spearmen in a horde formation. I found this didn't work during the store's last tournament, so I run 42 spearmen in a 7x6 block. This packs quite the punch! With this being said, perhaps Lizards have decent cavalry and foot soldiers and so can operate in an unorthodox fashion? Just theory, of course.
I personally think horde units are almost always crap. They are impossible to get into favourable combats, and unlike small units, actually make it harder for your OTHER units to get favourable combats. I'm also a hater of Core Saurus with spears and in such large units, but I will agree with you on the ridiculousness of trying to deploy them in horde. They are among worst infantry unit to horde in the game.

Anyway, I guess the best thing to do is for me to try 2x units of 7 and you guys could try a unit of 12 with FC and Spears.
I'm not advocating 2x7, I'm using 2x7 as an argument for how 12x1 is bad. I think 1x7 is the most I would take.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Yeah, pretty embarrassing I forgot my own Champion!

Okay, forgot about the BRB part about not being able to generate more attacks.

Yes, I agree the Stegadon is BA, and should be in every list, but that would go off of tournament list versus aesthetics. (A Godzilla figure as a Carnosaur proxy would be the best Warhammer fig, but it's not exactly on every Lizardman's tournament list.)

I will spare the innocents on a forum post on why you should run a block of 7x6 Saurus with spears. (I can hear the gasps of relief over the net right now.)
 
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