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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I was thinking that what Death Guard get for their mark and what 1000 Sons get are backwards. 1000 Sons are ghosts in armour basically, so I think they should get the added toughness because you have to blow the armour to bits to stop them, so added T seems appropriate. And Nurgle should get 2 wounds cause you may get a wound that would normally fell a marine, but since they are already rotten anyways, maybe that wound just blew up some already toasted guts anyways, so you really have to pump some wounds into them to get them to go down. They also should be slow and purposeful, because they're half rotten, kinda dragging along mangled legs and such. I mean how fast can you expect a decomposing body to move? On the other hand why would a ghost be slow? They wouldn't, that's what I'm trying to say.
 

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Well, the Thousand Sons aren't really like ghosts... they are more like... mindless automatons. They lumber across the battlefield with little direction except that given by the Sorcerors near them, so they move slowly. They're comparable to golems.

Nurgle Plague Marines, however, are very much aware of what's going on, and I can see the moving as normal.



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you can look at it bouth ways, nurgle have toughness 5 because of decay, because their zombie like, think of it in the resident evil prespective, zombies are hard to kill! giving them tougness 5. Think of thousand sons have 2 wounds because they dont have a physical body. Without a physical body, their souls can withstand more punishment and they need to crack the armor to kill them (thats how i see it anyway) its not like they have vital points like a headshot or shooting out their legs or something like that. Just think of it that way
 

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:w00t: Exactly what I was thinking...zombie marines should have 2 wounds cause they can just pick up their leg and keep going and the empty bodies with spirits should be tougher...
 

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I disagree, to me the way the rules are makes perfect sense.

Death Guard marines, from what I've read are almost dead already, with many parts of their body simply unneeded to continue operating. In other words this makes it so they can shrug off ordinary wounds very easily. How does that translate to game terms? by failing to-wound rolls. How do you make it so more to-wound rolls fail? you raise the toughness.

For Thousand Sons it's even more simple, 1 wound will almost never kill a thousand sons marine, simply because they have no body. How could you expect to bring one down just by blowing a single hole in its armour? No, I imagine you'd need to blow 2, 3, 4 maybe 5 holes in it before it fell apart.
 

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Xiahou Dun said:
I disagree, to me the way the rules are makes perfect sense.

Death Guard marines, from what I've read are almost dead already, with many parts of their body simply unneeded to continue operating. In other words this makes it so they can shrug off ordinary wounds very easily. How does that translate to game terms? by failing to-wound rolls. How do you make it so more to-wound rolls fail? you raise the toughness.

For Thousand Sons it's even more simple, 1 wound will almost never kill a thousand sons marine, simply because they have to body. How could you expect to bring one down just by blowing a single hole in its armour? No, I imagine you'd need to blow 2, 3, 4 maybe 5 holes in it before it fell apart.
Couldn't have said it better myself. I can see reasons for everyone else's arguments too, but IMO it makes more sense the way it currently is.

Also, while plaguemarines are in a state of decay, they aren't really zombie marines. To call them zombies would suggest that they have been reanimated from a deceased state and retain only minimum instincts and motor skills...if they were zombies, how would you justify them firing bolters (much less pointing them in the right direction)?

Anyways, just my two cents.
 

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Neferata said:
if they were zombies, how would you justify them firing bolters (much less pointing them in the right direction)?
Sorry, just thought i'd be really picky, but I take it you haven't seen Land of the Dead, zombies fire guns in that :lol:
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Fair enough, I can see it both ways, but I still stand by my opinion. Noone, however has argued the fact that rotting guys should be slow and purposeful while ghost should not. So what do you think about that?

I mean the one guy said that nurgle are aware of what's going on, sure they are, but they are still rotting, so you wouldn't think that they would be able to move exactly as fast as a complete and hyped up drug guy like SLaanesh. And if thousand sone need so much direction to move across the battlefield, they should have a ballistic skill of like 2, because basically you are saying the AC or Sorceror Lord has to keep super good tabs on them. No way man ghosts are that slow, slower than rotting guys. No way.
 

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northoceanbeach said:
Fair enough, I can see it both ways, but I still stand by my opinion. Noone, however has argued the fact that rotting guys should be slow and purposeful while ghost should not. So what do you think about that?

I mean the one guy said that nurgle are aware of what's going on, sure they are, but they are still rotting, so you wouldn't think that they would be able to move exactly as fast as a complete and hyped up drug guy like SLaanesh. And if thousand sone need so much direction to move across the battlefield, they should have a ballistic skill of like 2, because basically you are saying the AC or Sorceror Lord has to keep super good tabs on them. No way man ghosts are that slow, slower than rotting guys. No way.
I think you're looking at nurgle's gifts in too negative a light, this line from the book of nurgle on page 51 sums it up the best in my opinion. "Nurgle's followers suffer under the burden of his gifts as much as they benefit from them". Because their bodies are dead they do not suffer the limitations of the living. What would stop you from running flat-out all day long if you felt no pain?

Now for the thousand sons, your remark about how they ought to have a bs of 2 doesn't follow. They may be mindless automatons but they can still shoot just fine. The definition of an automaton is a self-operating machine, so they can do everything they used to do... in battle anyway, the difference is they don't think about it, can't think about it, they just do as they've been programmed. So the way I see it is, they don't need much direction from the sorcerors, the sorcerors just lead them around and let them do their thing.

I have no particularly compelling argument as to why thousand sons should have slow and purposeful. I figure it's just a drawback of the rubric spell which was cast on them. They're free of mutation but at the price of their conciousnesses. Now they're just ghosts of the marines they used to be, they stalk slowly across the battlefield, killing simply from instinct. In reality they're much closer to zombies than the death guard are.
 

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RobtheGuru said:
Sorry, just thought i'd be really picky, but I take it you haven't seen Land of the Dead, zombies fire guns in that :lol:
lol, alright, you got me there...but in my defense, that was a pretty bad movie :wacko:
 

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Xiahou Dun said:
I have no particularly compelling argument as to why thousand sons should have slow and purposeful. I figure it's just a drawback of the rubric spell which was cast on them. They're free of mutation but at the price of their conciousnesses. Now they're just ghosts of the marines they used to be, they stalk slowly across the battlefield, killing simply from instinct. In reality they're much closer to zombies than the death guard are.
Yep, in this respect, they are closer to Zombies than D.G.- funny. As regards to the fluff behind why T.S. should have slow and purposeful, it seems to relate to being an automaton. Perhaps it doesn't have to be this way, I mean, perhaps there are automatons that can move like other marines, but in the case at hand, it seems that the G.W. means the fact that they are mindless to have a direct affect on their speed. As you said, they are more like zombies than D.G.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
WHat would stop them from running flat out all day if they felt no pain? Rotting body parts. It may not hurt, but it also may not work as well as a nice fully funtional one. So it's not run all day, in game turns it's more of short sprints over the battle, these are war simulations, not Indians running for days tracking game. So in the case of slogging for days and 100s of miles maybe the death guard would win, but for sprinting up for a turn to get in a better firing position or whatever, someone like undivided or night lords has them beat in my opinion.

And as to the BS 2 I was just kindof thinking. If you are a mindless automoton, I see no reason why you couldn't pop off alot of shots, but to have good aim and shoot with accuracy, I think that takes skill and concentration.
 

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I would like to see where it is said that they are mind automatons, from what I've read, it just seems that the 1000 Sons where just sealed in there armor, their spirit trapped. That's it, not that they lost their mind. If anyone has lost their mind, it would be Plague Marines. Who in my opinion would move slower because of there decay body and the Thousands Son move fine because as a ghost/spirit, their more aware of their surroundings. Then again this is GW doing with fluff, and GW doesn't know its head from a hole in the ground.
 

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LictorInTheGrass said:
I would like to see where it is said that they are mind automatons, from what I've read, it just seems that the 1000 Sons where just sealed in there armor, their spirit trapped. That's it, not that they lost their mind. If anyone has lost their mind, it would be Plague Marines. Who in my opinion would move slower because of there decay body and the Thousands Son move fine because as a ghost/spirit, their more aware of their surroundings. Then again this is GW doing with fluff, and GW doesn't know its head from a hole in the ground.
It says it a couple of times in the book of Tzeentch. Once in the description of Ahriman's past, the better known one, under chaos space marines saying why they can't take veteran skills.
 

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I think their [GW] fluff is perfectly sound. If I was to change any of the rules of either of the two legions myself, I might make the plague marines toughness 4, but give them the "feel no pain" special rule.

But why fix it if it ain't broke?
 

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Neferata said:
I think their [GW] fluff is perfectly sound. If I was to change any of the rules of either of the two legions myself, I might make the plague marines toughness 4, but give them the "feel no pain" special rule.
I rather like that, though Khornate players would have issues since their Champions would lose something special. It does fit in with the Nurgle theme a bit better, however.

Sometimes I miss the previous Codex rules, when Thousand Sons marines were immune to strength 4 and lower weapons. On the other hand, that's about the only thing I miss from that Codex....
 
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