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Blistering Barnacles!
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I haven't played Warhammer for a while due to the *cough* budgeting and inability to play anyone when I want to. My stuff has been left deep inside one of my cupboards, and, resisting much of my temptation to sell it, survived.

Well an idea popped into my head today that seemed like a good idea. Considering I've never played IG before but have always admired the big tanks, I could do with some help.

So, here's my idea:

Having learnt about trench warfare at school some time ago, and being reminded of it after watching Gallipoli, it seemed like a cool idea to apply the kind of warfare used on the Eastern/Western Front (Allies vs. Germans, yes you Americans were involved there too) into a wargame like this. For those of you who don't know this the idea is:

Men stay in trenches whilst you bomb them so much with your artillery, before they have time to recover from the barrage your men rush over, killing all the survivors and nicking the trench.

Now could I do this with IG... would SM be a better option to be able to do this kind of thing? I had in mind: blow them up with the Basilisks, then rush in with transports and Lemans, but I have nasty feelings of scattering way off target + not penetrating the power armour + stupid IG weaklings getting owned as soon as they stick their head over the trench

This is forgetting all the 'you must have 2 core choices' rules of course, I might have to use tank company even though everyone hates it.

So what is your verdict? Would I die?

(even if it all goes wrong making the trench scenery would be awesome with the little dugouts, barbed wire and tea pots [even little men need tea])
 

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Hello.

Now, are you implying that you will stay out of LOS, in cover for the first few turns of a game while you have big guns knock them out. Then come in attacking and being very aggressive?

I don't think it could work, I just can't imagine that.

IG more so play the role of the people in the trenches getting charged.

I'm just kind of confused by what your proposing.

A strategy for the standard games?

A special game where each team gets a Trench?

A standard game with you using trench terrain pieces?

In the end, with IG I think you should stay in your trenches, cover and your side of the map as you bomb them with Basilisks and shoot them from those positions. Rushing in with transports doesn't sound like WWI trench warfare at all. If anything mechanized warfare. Coordinated air and artillery strikes with armored spear heads?

I don't know, I'm just kinda confused.
 

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I'm Back!
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what would be cool if two IG players were doing this against each other.;Y
 

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I personally could see it. Although instead of using transports, dedicate one Leman Russ as the walking armor. So that while it's moving forwards, you have two or three squads following it before spreading out and hitting the enemy inside the trenches.

Although Space Marines are better suited for this, certain doctorines could go well to something like this. Other than that, I do agree that it's possible to do this. Especially seeing how battles of attrition do come into the Guardsmen's strenght of numbers. Something that even Space Marines can have a hard time with that.
 
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Born from Tears of Angels
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If you want to play a trech theme than DKOK is always an option, an expensive one, but an option never the less. Look them up on forgeworld, and download the 1st part of IA5 using a torrent (Its free, but the file is pretty big so might take a while). If you like trench warfare than you will immediately fall in love with the rules, theme and models.
 

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In concept it could work but there are a few problems

You want the imperial guard to "rush" over and kill all the survivors? the only way to make imperail guard troops succesful in close combat is warrior weapons and maybe hardened veterans, but an ork will still be more effective and cheaper

If you are fighting another shooty army then they will most likely be able to deal with your basiliks before they do enough to allow your slow transports and even slower men to get to there lines. Not to mention they wil be able to blow your troops away while your charging.

you could make a fluffy army using warrior weapons or you could use drop troops with your entire army.

You could also use allies to be your rushers
This could be thought of fluff wise as "the main body of troops stays in the trenches keeping the heads of the enemys down, while the elite of the army makes a rush forward."

You could use deamon hunters as your rushers, but model them as storm troopers if you want to keep a human look

The DKOK would be a good option to look into (the models are sweet as well)
 
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Set Sail and Conquer!
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Men stay in trenches whilst you bomb them so much with your artillery, before they have time to recover from the barrage your men rush over, killing all the survivors and nicking the trench.
Surprisingly, this is actually kinda what you will see happen in many games with IG, especially in objective based scenarios.

What I mean is, if I am running a 'hold the line' style IG list (which I tend not to do very much), what tends to happen is I pound the opponents troops to below scoring status, and then in the last few turns run all my guardsmen forward to claim those juicey game winning objectives.

So I think you might be happy with a normal guard army, if played well you'll get this style of thing happening anyway! :)
 
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As far as what kind of units you could use, you could have a mortar heavy command squad, a mortar in each platoon command, maybe a special weapons platoon with snipers (or ratlings, if you can stand the models), two basilisks and a leman russ (demolisher or standard really), and even some rough riders, since cavalry was still in use during WWI. If you wanted your squads to rush forward, you could forgo heavy weapons in the squads and take meltas, flamers or grenade launchers so that you could fire while your advancing. Also, simply because you are charging doesn't necessarily mean you'll be engaging in assaults, so doctrine choices like warrior weapons and hardened fighters aren't essential. You could charge up to rapid fire range and unload on them with a whole bunch of lasgun shots. If you decide not to take any elites, you could bring a lot of squads to the table, and that could lead to some good chances to get a few squads into retreating lanes for some easy mop up action. The good thing about this, as Cadaver Junkie said, you wouldn't have to worry so much about not having any units in scoring positions, because that's part of your game plan, to move up and take ground as opposed to hanging back and hoping to win by attrition. It could work, and with the right scenery it would be awesome to watch.

You could go about it in two ways. Either you could try and hide a majority of your units in cover and rush them out, or you could just present so many targets that your opponent couldn't possibly prevent your rush from causing extreme damage. The first suggestion probably won't be as viable, since not many tables have enough cover to provide a lack of LOS or an abundance of cover. The second option is more likely, though against armies that deepstrike a lot (SM or IG drop lists) or extremely mobile armies (DE, Eldar, and mech lists, especially Black Templar type lists that want to lock up in close combat) you'll probably run into some problems.

As was stated earlier, Death Korps of Krieg are pretty much tailor made for this kind of army, from their abundance of heavy mortars to their trenchcoats. IT'll be expensive if you go this route, but who knows maybe DKoK will get some plastics.
 
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...
Having learnt about trench warfare at school some time ago, and being reminded of it after watching Gallipoli, it seemed like a cool idea to apply the kind of warfare used on the Eastern/Western Front (Allies vs. Germans, yes you Americans were involved there too) into a wargame like this. For those of you who don't know this the idea is:

Men stay in trenches whilst you bomb them so much with your artillery, before they have time to recover from the barrage your men rush over, killing all the survivors and nicking the trench.
....
(even if it all goes wrong making the trench scenery would be awesome with the little dugouts, barbed wire and tea pots [even little men need tea])
It certainly sounds a cool modelling project.

I'm not sure how well it would work as a balanced game.

BUT if you did it as a specifically themed game?

Typically in WW1 the attacker would strive to have a 3:1 superiority as a minimum,, so let's say the attacker gets anywhere between twice and three times the points to spend, but the defender gets most of the trenches divided into zones (the attacker only needs them as a jumping off point)

Then the attacker gets X moves to seize a certain number of zones, if he doesn't do it within the time limit it's assumed reserves have been brought up and the attack - however successful at a local level - would fail overall.

Then you switch sides and see whether or not you can do better at shoring up your crumbling line and moving survivors to key positions.

If you did it as an Apocalypse style game with blocks of artillery and infantry it could be a hoot.

Of course you could always go down scale - WW1 style Trench Raids would make an ideal background for Kill Team - you'd only need a single DKOK Grenadier Squad which would be cheaper?

I'd suggest looking for historical wargames rules from the WW1 period for ideas - I have a set from years ago called "Trench" which allowed for either division scale attacks or Trench raids.

In fact I can see some more Forgeworld purchases needed as we speak - damn you sir!! ;)
 
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Blistering Barnacles!
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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Thanks a lot guys. I'll certainly look into these Krieg guys, but of course the main part is the scenery - the idea of trenches in warhammer where your little friends can hide and step up to shoot just enthralls me. I don't really like playing any extra rules than just kill so I wouldn't play any type of scenario other than the norm, but I love charging forward with a load of grenade dudes and flamers even if they die :)
 

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durus
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Your idea is really neet and full of fluff that fits Guard to a 'T', but in game play it would suffer from the same results as the brave men in Gallipoli.:|

Guard are not good in assault, and even worse when trying to cover open ground on foot. Guard are much better at being the 'defender', staying put in cover blasting away with our tanks, heavy and special weapons.

Cheers, DH
 

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Blistering Barnacles!
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Yep, lol thanks as I said I thought this might be the case :) Even so, because of this would IG vs IG not work due to their defendability?
 

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I have made a modular trench system for my guards to use for games. The rulings with it to help keep the game balance are as followed:

The trenches does not block LOS. Targeting is done as normal as with taking a leadership check to fire at units beyond the closest.

The trenches provide a 3+ cover save unless fortified and only one 6 inch section can be fortified. The fortification provides a 2+ cover save.

Going into and out of the trenches count as moving into difficult terrain. A difficult terrain roll must be made to enter the trenches. Moving in the trenches count as moving normally. Only going in or out requires a difficult terrain roll.

Barrages and Ordinace weapons
Barrages must roll a 4+ to hit after the scatter roll is made.
Ordinace must roll a 2+ to hit after rolling normally to hit.

This represents the blast hitting the upper part of the trenches and the troops hunkering down for shelter.

Otherwise, everything is as normal.

This makes for trench warfare a rough thing like in WW1
 
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Diggum pretty much laid it out. The reason nothing happened (by which I mean ground was lost or gained) in WWII is because of the open ground that needed to be traversed. Men simply can't travel fast enough to out race bullets. And Artillery are a little squeamish about firing into their own men.

Lets factor in WH40K. Except for tau, every other army is pretty much geared for Close combat or close shooting. So we would lose out. Your best bet with guard is to pound the living crap out of everyone and use drop troops and special forces to scare people out of holes and blow up the crap that can blow up your big crap. Think current American army. Nobody will agree with me there but thats how we operate.
 

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Blistering Barnacles!
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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Once again thanks for your replies, and I like those trench rules you made. I was thinking if I had a atrench, the other team could have x amount of extra points?
 

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Once again thanks for your replies, and I like those trench rules you made. I was thinking if I had a atrench, the other team could have x amount of extra points?
Or maybe some kind of equivalent like sustained attack or endless swarm. Something like that.

Or even better, since the opposing side is the attacker, and every trench attack was announced by an artillery bombardment, maybe your opponent could get like, one extra roll for every unit on a preliminary bombardment or something.
 

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Set Sail and Conquer!
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Your idea is really neet and full of fluff that fits Guard to a 'T', but in game play it would suffer from the same results as the brave men in Gallipoli.:|

Guard are not good in assault, and even worse when trying to cover open ground on foot. Guard are much better at being the 'defender', staying put in cover blasting away with our tanks, heavy and special weapons.

Cheers, DH

I dunno really, I mean, its true that IG aren't very good in actual hth, but they can be ok on the assault - as in, over the 12" range. It all depends on what you mean by assault, I guess.

My skitarii army list is based over the 12" range. Lots of rapid fire plasmaguns, meltaguns, and of course the usual lasguns. Heavy flamers.

Sure, all of this does come with a fair amount of long range support as well, but my point is, over the short distance, my army is designed to be devastating. And it often is. So when they are on the move, assaulting up the board if you will, they can certainly hold their own!

Although yes, I wouldn't recommend running your army over open ground on foot - they wont last long. Terrain is your friend! You can always try and shepherd them over behind sentinels and chimeras, but that generally only works for one turn anyway.
 
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Blistering Barnacles!
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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Once again thanks for your help. I had a look at some of the dkok stuff on Forgeworld but they were tons too expensive (£4 a plastic model??), and I don't really fancy converting anyway. Say I give up the idea of assaulting and defend my trench instead, would armoured company be a good idea?
 

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Once again thanks for your help. I had a look at some of the dkok stuff on Forgeworld but they were tons too expensive (£4 a plastic model??), and I don't really fancy converting anyway. Say I give up the idea of assaulting and defend my trench instead, would armoured company be a good idea?
I've heard mixed reviews about Armored Companies. Of course the biggest drawback is they aren't entirely legal I think. I'm not sure if you can use them in tourneys. The second drawback is the cost. Unless you can get your hands on one of those 10 tank boxes, you're gonna be paying about $40 for each piece of your army. I suppose you could still come out at about the average cost of an IG army, depending on each list, but it's going to be pricey.

Still, the idea of fielding a whole mess of tanks and just roling over the battlefield, pie plating and tank shocking everything in your way is cool. Plus if you like to develp fluff, ACs provide some neat opportunities for fluff that is not only cool to develop and talk about, but can be plainly visible on the battlefield. You could go all WWII airmen with it and paint individualized art and names on your tanks and such. It'd be neat.
 

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Blistering Barnacles!
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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
yeah I was thinking of an AC. I've never heard of cheap 10 tank boxes any idea where I could get hold of one? Of course it would slant towards artillery, I have always liked the idea of tons of tanks :)
 
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