Librarium Online Forums banner
1 - 20 of 30 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
93 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Well at first I had decided to play strictly Deathworld Veterans with Kroot Mercenary allies indigenous to the planet where these Deathworlders are from. But then I read in despair that the Deathworld Veterans list cant take ANY sort of vehicle whatsoever.. not even a chimera.

Now I know when your entire army infiltrates to varying degrees or start off the game hidden/in hard cover vehicles arent a priority, especially in jungle terrain. But GW got one giant glaring thing wrong here..

..not ALL deathworlds are full of vast jungles!! Just Catachan & others like it, but there are just as many that are toxic wastelands, freezing polar planets, planets where the nearest sun light only shines for a few hours each day, volcanic mountanous planets full of caves and rocky debris, etc. On plenty such worlds troop transport and even so much as a fighting tank could have its obvious uses.

Because of this, im playing the regular Imperial Guard list with the doctrines of light infantry & jungle fighting, and the rest i've yet to choose because i dont have a codex at the moment. Very possibly that one "weapon warriors" or something that helps you somehow in close combat? Lol.. which brings me to my question.

Do you think Imperial Guard can make a decent hand to hand "detachment" or platoon, not entire force, that is competant and good in close combat against at least half of the other race's conscripts and low caste fighters? What Im thinking about is two Chimeras loaded with 2 squads equipped for hand to hand combat and influenced by the best doctrines. Accompanying these brave 18 young men will be three Catachan-issue Sentinels, with the Heavy Flamer & "Chainsaw addition", giving it an extra attack in close combat, which makes 2 WS4 STR5 attacks from the senintel -- not great but not too terrible i suppose. I figure the chimeras and sentinels will all go down 1 flank, or all down the center if forced, all acting on the same targets in coordination. Up close im having the feeling that 3 heavy flamers would really help those poor Deathworlders out fighting / about to fight for their lives. The Sentinels could also enter a combat, if it's a good idea at the time. What do you think about this as a close combat platoon if you will? Will it work or will i get my ass handed to me repeatedly? I plan on using the options for the Veterans of bringing plasma guns or melta guns if im facing someone with lots of armor. If the combat is an obvious loss, I could roast them & the enemy up alike with the heavy flamers, lol. Hey, they're piloted by Commissar cronies.

Just so you know, the rest of the army (1500pts total for the entire army) would consist of a 2nd platoon outfitted for more ranged combat (again, just 2 squads, minimum for platoon) with plasma guns and maybe even a heavy weapon. This will be my Human Deathworld force, mostly indiginous Humans from this particular Deathworld, but led by a small elite force of Imperial Guard from a neighboring Deathworld which has already been claimed for the Imperium. Kroot Also inhabit this world, and have been warring with the human tribes and their own tribes since the dawn of their creation, whoever came first. The reason for Imperial interest in this Deathworld is the fact that the Tau already have a base colony in place on the other side of the planet & have befriended tribe upon tribe of Kroot for labor & combat against rebelious tribes. One of the Shaper's from the tribal inner council refused to join the Tau and defected with 1/3rd of the Kroot tribes on the planet. Since then, they've found themselves alongside Human warriors frequently, even learning basic ways to communicate from race to race. They do have a lust for organism flesh, but they're kept under control by the Shapers, not to mention they have to kill their opponent in combat before partaking on their flesh, for that is very taboo in this kroot society.

Anyways, thats how Deathworld vets under Imprial Guard rules with Kroot allies will work out, some fluff (hey I wanted to brainstorm my story into a better one) on how this unlikely pair joined up as allies on this dreaded, near-toxic volanic world, and a couple of requests for your opinions on the close combat platoon. thx for reading my long ass post.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
72 Posts
Kroot have a lot of bonus' for fighting in jungle....i would know. *shudders* so might want to think about why jungle loving kroot are on a volcanic ash world? ou could make it half and half. kinda like hawaii, jungle at the bottum and volcanos up above, that'd be kinda neat actually. but thats all, good idea so far.

and if u really want to do damage up close, just give drop troops to a SW squad with 3 Demo-packs:shifty:
 

·
Dawn Under Heaven
Joined
·
3,577 Posts
You could do it, it'd be all nice and fluffy but it would play like crap. Jungle Fighters even with doctrines are still worth bugger all in a hand to hand fight. If you want a fast, effective assault team, you're barking up the wrong tree. You need to look at either rough riders or Xeno steeds.
 

·
Senior Member
Joined
·
908 Posts
Triumph Of Man said:
You could do it, it'd be all nice and fluffy but it would play like crap. Jungle Fighters even with doctrines are still worth bugger all in a hand to hand fight. If you want a fast, effective assault team, you're barking up the wrong tree. You need to look at either rough riders or Xeno steeds.
I agree that guardsmen are impossible to outfit for close combat. We just don't have the base stat's. But rough riders are AMAZING shock troops. Maybe you could work into your fluff how the natives learned to train xeno-beasties for war-steeds?

Also, I think maybe you're just thinking the wrong direction with your cc-specialists. I think that rather than *increase* their cost for measly benefits, the key with the guard is to *lower* their price by getting conscripts! They are amazing. I think there's a thread or two on them already you could check out. Generally, I find that 1 less WS, when you're on the lower end of the spectrum like us, doesn't even penalize you. Against Orks or Space Marines, conscripts hit on the same roll as normal guardsmen... :wacko:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
586 Posts
Just to repeat, line squads will never pull their weight in CC. You can sink all the points you like into doctrines and it will just make them more expensive losers. Except against Tau, in which case a marginal CC win will turn into a less marginal CC win.

Your best bets for CC are:

Roughriders
SWS with flamers and a demo charge (I think you're only allowed one per squad, no?)
A Last Chancer with a demo charge (the "crazy Ivan")
Huge mobs of conscripts with CoD
Counterassault flamer squads behind the conscripts, out of consolidate range
Sentinels as speedbumps
The Catachan list
 

·
Son of LO
Joined
·
5,146 Posts
In my opinon, close order drill is the single most effective CC booster for guard, but there's no way, fluffwise, you can justify deathworld troops having it. They're supposed to be crazy, undisciplined psychos, after all.

Tanks on deathworlds? Hmm.. I get what you're saying, but, think about how useful tanks would really be on any of the worlds you've suggested.

Jungles - obvious

Swamps - Chimera is amphibious, but that isn't going to stop it getting bogged down in any cloying sludge.

Toxic Wastes - As the above, except the sludge also eats through the hull in minutes.

Polar Planets - Fuel freezes in the engine, tracks sieze up every few minutes.. Tanks in extreme cold generally don't work very well. Also, one of the hallmarks of a deathworld is dangerous wildlife.. is a polar planet going to have much wildlife at all? Therefore, there's a question of whether polar planets would actually be deathworlds.

Dark planets - These are not neccesarily deathworlds, and troops raised from them are best represented by the 'nightsiders' abhuman doctrine.

Radioactive Wastes - This is the one where I can see your point. However, troops who come from such worlds generally aren't much like catachans anyway. They're either mutants, or crazed fantatics like the death korps.
 

·
durus
Joined
·
2,771 Posts
To properly equipe a Guard squad for CC, you need:

Warrior Weapons:
Die Hards:
Hardened Fighters:
Close Order Drill:

Now your Guardsman Cost 10pts each instead of 6. An Ork Slugga Boy is 9pts and is T4 and has one more attack.

You can do it for fluff, but not to win.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,128 Posts
We've got a probe back from the Hoth system.

The_Giant_Mantis said:
Polar Planets ... Also, one of the hallmarks of a deathworld is dangerous wildlife.. is a polar planet going to have much wildlife at all? Therefore, there's a question of whether polar planets would actually be deathworlds.

Well, I agree that tanks would be in trouble here too, but as for dangerous lifeforms....Its possible. Typically hostile lifeforms in a 'polar' style enviroment are much rarer, but they also tend to be larger. :)

Think Polar Bears, Wooly Rhinoceri, Giant Mammoth's, Sabre Tooth Tigers, giant hairy boars maybe, killer whales coming up from under the ice, that Yeti type thing from 'Empire Strikes Back'.

Here's a quote from some site I found about animals around in the last ice age in North America at least.

'There are mammoths being killed by massive lions and sabertooth cats. Bison are almost as big as elephants. Beavers are as big as bears, the short faced bear stands more than 5 foot at the shoulder, almost twice the size of a grizzly bear. These big animals merit their name - mega-fauna.'

Beavers as big as bears! Heh.

To make it a 'death world' you just add poison, spikes and higher human hating intelligence to everything. :). Maybe some acid for blood or fire breathing. Whee.


Typical ice-deathworlder bull****ting other troops.


'Huh. Call this cold? This is nothing like as bad as home. I remember when old Tarick went out for a stroll and never came back. We thought the mega beavers had caught him, eaten him and used his bones to line their nests. Turns out he saw the Xasit instead. When spring came, which was about eight of your years later we found where he had been when his screams thawed out enough to be heard. Never found the body of course.'
 

·
Dawn Under Heaven
Joined
·
3,577 Posts
The_Giant_Mantis said:
fluffwise, you can justify deathworld troops having it. They're supposed to be crazy, undisciplined psychos, after all.
No they're not, you're thinking of regiments like the mordant headhunters or something. Catachan for one are well disciplined, amongst them selves that is. You need to earn their respect in otherways than fear (which is why commisars get hurt), which is probably why their officers fight can join their infantry squads. Rember each community is very close knit, probably a lot of them are related, so you could have Close Oder Drill to represent their mateship and them sticking together to protect each others backs and flanks.

There's a picture in the Catachan codex of a squad of men standing shoulder to shoulder and fighting genestealers. IMO they're using COD.
 

·
Son of LO
Joined
·
5,146 Posts
Triumph Of Man said:
There's a picture in the Catachan codex of a squad of men standing shoulder to shoulder and fighting genestealers. IMO they're using COD.
Then why isn't it listed in their recommended doctrines.

The ability to stand in a line and shoot does not qualify CoD, in my opinion. CoD represents a special level of regimental focus on fixed formation tactics and precision drilling.

You tell a catachan to practice his close order drill, and you're probably going to get an answer like 'Listen 'Sir', I've been hunting devil grubs since I was five.. I don't need to be told how to stand in no line and ponce around like a fool.'

Don't confuse rules and fluff.. I know CoD is great, noone needs to tell me that. My question is, is it fluffy? Put aside the alterior motive that you probably want to use it, and ask yourself whether a regiment raised on a jungle world, which maintains discipline through charismatic leadership, is going to spend hours and hours drilling so that, in battle, they can march around in perfect unison.
 

·
Dawn Under Heaven
Joined
·
3,577 Posts
Then why isn't it listed in their recommended traits.
For the same reason that you can use a Valhallen regiment with different doctrines to the recomended traits. Each regiment is different and some train and evolve different fighting techniques to others despite them being from the same planet.

Have you ever been to a medievil fair? The ones where you get all suited up in armour and have at each other? Simply standing shoulder to shoulder and fighting in a line makes a huge difference. You don't need practice, you don't need training. Standing together makes it easier to defend yourself and you're got allies nearby that can help you. Also you can take advantage of an opponent exposing himself if he tries to strike a friend.
 

·
Son of LO
Joined
·
5,146 Posts
Triumph Of Man said:
Have you ever been to a medievil fair? The ones where you get all suited up in armour and have at each other? Simply standing shoulder to shoulder and fighting in a line makes a huge difference.
Why wasn't it being done it Vietnam then, or by warring jungle tribes?

Catachan seems to be a lot more similar to these battlegrounds/societies than the european middle ages.

Close Order Drill isn't just about standing in a big line either.. Otherwise it would be called 'standing in a big line.' It's about the regiment recieving some kind of intensive drill instruction beyond what most regiments undergo. As I've said, can you see any self respecting Catachan spending hours marching around in perfect formation in the jungle while an officer barks commands?

Hey, I wouldn't complain in a game or anything. But I just don't think it can be justified from the fluff.
 

·
Dawn Under Heaven
Joined
·
3,577 Posts
[/quote]Why wasn't it being done it Vietnam then,
Because in Vietnam there wasn't the problem of Genestealers trying eat you, or Khorne worshippers convincing you that they need your skulls to put in a pile.

warring jungle tribes?
How do you know it wasn't? When the two forces ran undisciplinely at each other there is no line, but once they hit each other there will be. Only the very lucky or the very skillful will stay alive if he's surrounded.

Close Order Drill isn't just about standing in a big line either.. Otherwise it would be called 'standing in a big line.' It's about the regiment recieving some kind of intensive drill instruction beyond what most regiments undergo.
That's one way of looking at it. Hence why I suggested "Rember each community is very close knit, probably a lot of them are related, so you could have Close Oder Drill to represent their mateship and them sticking together to protect each others backs and flanks." The more they are surrounded and attacked, they press together and the harder and more vicously they fight back to protects their mates.
 

·
Son of LO
Joined
·
5,146 Posts
Triumph of Man said:
That's one way of looking at it. Hence why I suggested "Rember each community is very close knit, probably a lot of them are related, so you could have Close Oder Drill to represent their mateship and them sticking together to protect each others backs and flanks." The more they are surrounded and attacked, they press together and the harder and more vicously they fight back to protects their mates.
I have no way around that argument.. Heck, it's better than using Chem Inhalers without modelling them and just claiming your troops are super brave rather than doped up to the eyeballs.

As I said, I'm not going to complain about people using this in a game (and since I normally field Emperor's Children, I don't have to.. The initiative bonus doesn't do much, and I can laugh inanely while dropping defiler pie plates and flamer templates on things,) but I wouldn't use it myself. My policy is, if it's possibly going to cause arguments, or stretch believability, don't do it. Others might not be so cautious, and that's cool. You need to give and take a bit.

I guess it all depends on the priority of fluff.. if you see fluff as merely something to justify and validate the rules, then fine, that's cool. However, I think there's a virtue and a joy to be had from fielding a list which has made some saccrifices for the fluff, not to the point of unplayability, but to the point that you aren't just playing the same army as everyone else with a different 'flavour' tacked on the end.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
48 Posts
for a good gaurd cc unit take

consipes
abhuman
**** sapiens variatus (or beat herds)

ws3 consripes with furious charge. haha death to all that it charges
 

·
Son of LO
Joined
·
5,146 Posts
Kato said:
for a good gaurd cc unit take

consipes
abhuman
**** sapiens variatus (or beat herds)

ws3 consripes with furious charge. haha death to all that it charges
That's not bad.. but you're negating the great thing about conscripts, the low, low price tag, and their leadership isn't any better, so they're still going to panic and run screaming when things go wrong.

In fact, while these guys are cool, I'm debating whether it's better to spend those points on more basic conscripts rather than a few better ones. But I can't be bothered to do the maths and find out.

Speaking of abhumans.. is it just me or are slave levies really, really good. :shifty:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
48 Posts
slave levies is very good for moving heavy weapons by foot

beat herds is only 30pts spread across 50 models
 
1 - 20 of 30 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top