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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
I am currently on a bit of a losing streak and I am wondering if anybody here has any advice on what I am doing wrong. The three armies I tend to play the most are Grey Knights, Necron, and Chaos. I am just about tied W/L with the Grey Knights but have yet to beat either the Necrons or the Chaos. The Necron army just doesn't stop coming forward, VoD lord and immortals just pop up and eat my troops, Destroyers eat anything, glancing and blowing up my heads, making a FW squad simply not be there anymore, or killing the only guns in my army that make them slow down a little, the suits. Flayed ones just rush at me. Wraiths. Destroyer lord. Monolith. No matter what I shoot at, I am wrong. To make it more insulting, the Necron player is the unluckiest person alive. He goes turns failing every single WBB. I have seen him fail morale checks. Despite this, and regardless of what I do, I have never come close to holding him to only a solid victory.
The Chaos army has 17 models in it. 14 infiltrating marines, melta + powerfist, an insane CC Daemon Prince (2 claws, lots of daemon gifts, sppikey bits), a predator, all lascannons, and a defiler, battle cannon, lascannon, havoc launcher. The vehichles have mutated hull, possession, and the defiler has indirect. Basically, the marines infiltrate onto my doorstep and serve as meat shields while the lord runs like a mad man and and destroys anything he touches. Once my tanks get destroyed, which they tend to do rather quickly, I have no choice but to sit back and die. I cannot kill enough marines to get to shoot at hit lord before it is in close combat. Once it hits something, he doesn't stop.
In thousand point games I bring 24 FW, 12 are in a fish, 2 normal suits, team leaders, with TL missile pods and plasma with HW multi, 2 fireknife El's, a railhead, and an ionhead.
Help me.
 

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Post your full list(exact equipment details) and tactics, its a bit hard to advise you when we have no idea whow your deploying, how your using XV8's, HH etc. Also whats the Chaos players troop set up he sounds a bit short on troops to me given the fact that min squad size is usually 5, infiltrate is usually easy to prevent by using deployment for instance and we need to know his Daemon princes stats and wargear cos depending on what he has got the advice will vary wildly.
Also the Necron player sounds like he has a very expensive list what points value do you play against him cos he aint getting that lot in a 1000pts.
One thing hits home straight away lack of low AP weaponry fireknifes are crap against marines and necrons you need Plasma and fusion. I would be interested to see the necs and chaos lists cos they sound very powerfull and the chaos in particular seems very tooled up with wargear, upgrades for 1000pts.Chaos players are renowned for making errors when equiping princes and lords as a lot of options cancel others out, is the HQ a daemon prince or a lord, does it have daemonic stature and daemonic flight etc.
Give us what we ask and you will be helped.
 

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I would say get rid of the Hammerheads for some more battlesuits and broadsides. Also don't waste points on a HW multi-tracker, instead just use normal Crisis suits with missle pods, plasma guns, and MT. Mabie some drones would help slow 'em down, in exchange for some Fire Warriors.
 

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For the nercs, put plasma rifles and fusion blasters on your crisis suits, and take a lot of em. Also a broadside or two I find to be good in a scenario versus necrons... take up more of a static stance than mech. Lots of JSJ. Pathfinders = yes.

I'm sure there's lots of different tactics that work, though >_>
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
My army
HQ
Shas'el
Missile pod, Plasma Rifle, Multi tracker

Shas'el
See above

Elites
XV8 crisis suit team leader
TL Missile pod, Plasma Rifle, HW multitracker

XV8 crisis suit team leader
see above

Troops
12 Firewarriors with Shas'ui
12 Firewarriors in a Devilfish

Heavy support
Ionhead w/ burst cannons, multitracker, decoy launcher, and target lock
Railhead w/ SMS and same upgrades

Chaos
HQ
Daemon lord
Daemonic speed, essence, strength, armor
Dual lightning claws
Infiltrate

Troops
6 chaos marines with AC
1 melta and a powerfist on the AC, infiltrating

6 chaos marines with AC
same as above

Heavy

Predator
TL lascannon with two sponsoon lascannons
Mutated hull, daemonic posession

Defiler
Battle cannon, TL lascannon, Havoc Launcher
Mutated hull
Against the chaos, I generally I try and keep my static FW in the back as a target and dance my suits around while my tanks keep moving and shooting and I eventually FoF the assaulty troops. Basically, his troops end up serving as hard to kill meat shield to protect his lord. No matter how much I throw at them, the lord starts so close he takes maybe a turn to get into close combat with something. I cannot get close to enough shots on him to to kill him, if I get any shots on him at all. His tanks sit way back and just unload on me while I desperately try to save my suits and troops. My railgun always fails to do anything to his tanks. Basically, his lord just flies up and eats me. I cannot stop it.
 

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I always take kroot. Why? I always take an all comers list, which must include something to help against infiltrators. Kroot help, a lot.

Tau have a tough time against necrons, it's no surprise you're having trouble there. Daemonhunters have a tough time against tau, should be winning consistently here. Look in murekhalir's thread for my large post, it might be useful.
 

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necrons his hard...i played one in a tourny and he beat me.you should make your ion a railhead,they are plain better.and to beat the defiler i suggest a deepstriking helios
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I beat the chaos player. His lord was seperated from his meat shield courtesy of assaulting a suit and winning. Unfortunately, my railgun was there to say hi. So he died. Then I used a devilfish full of FW with EMP grenades to destroy (blow up actually) his tri-lascannon equipped predator. The defiler fell to a railgun. I used my kroot literally in a straight line across the board at the edge of coherency to mess up his infiltrating. Luckily there was a forest right in the middle so they got cover saves anyway.
 

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I have an idea on how to deal with Necron armies that have lots of Destroyers. I know it'll sound crazy but move up and assault his wariors with everything you have. Better to be in combat then getting shot at by the Destroyers. Oh, and I would change the list a bit. As was said before, drop hardwired multi traquers. I personaly would also take more Firewarriors instead of the Devilfish but that's me. Also, consider using human auxilery with EMP grenades instead of Firewarriors to get at tanks. They generaly tend to be ignored (until your oponent finds out that they have EMP grenades) so they can get a crucial kill in before biting the dust.
 

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I've had plenty of experience against necrons, but more experience being owned by them. Here are a few tips:

- Firewarriors are useless. Statistically it takes 18 pulse shots to take down one warrior. Once the destroyers open fire, they wipe a squad from the board (if they aren't dead, they end up running off the board in my experience). Destroyers also have 6" more range than our firewarriors, so a smart player will take advantage of this distance. Take a few FWs as possible. If you plan on bringing a lot of FWs, take them in fishes.

- Close combat is not an option. Period. I've tried it with some firewarriors that were going to be screwed over anyway the next turn, and they do absolutely no good. Statistically it takes 36 firewarriors punches to kill a necron warrior. Twice as bad than shooting. Not an option.

- Bring as many plasma rifles and fusion blasters. As many as possible.

- Maybe bring Broadsides for your heavy support; they can cover your forces from a 'Lith and use their plasma rifles later on in the battle. A Railhead quickly loses its effectiveness, since it is using Burst cannons/SMS (18 shots statistically) rather than Plasma Rifles. This is one instance where the Railhead loses to the Broadsides.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
The big problem is that I own no broadsides. I have made a new list to trry and deal with the necrons. I have three hammer heads (2 rail, 1 ion all with burst cannons), 5 fireknife suits including 2 shas'els, 10 kroot, 7 drones, and 6 firewarriors.
 

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For me against necrons it's all about the volume of shots, and concentrating fire on one squad so you can take it out completely. If they all fall down, they can't get back up unless they are 6" (I think it's 6") from another squad of the same unit. This works pretty well with the smaller and faster squads, such as destroyers, heavy destroyers and wraiths, that really must be killed early in the game. Stealths, crisis suits, and drones can then use terrain and JSJ tactics, supported by FWs at 30", to kill the larger squads of necron troops. It takes a while, but if they can't shoot back effectively you will eventually kill enough of them. Monoliths and Lords are another thing, wish your railheads luck and fire away. Even if you can't kill the Lith and the Lord, run away from them and just keep plinking away at the troops and you might be able to kill enough to force a phase out.
 

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Last game I had, a unit of 8 tzeentch and the lieutenant with the key (veil of darkness equivalent) teleported and shot down one of my commanders. I was able to use my superior mobility to then unload both my fire warriors in devilfish, and have my unit of 4 stealths, commander, hammerhead with burst cannons (lost its railgun), and ionhead with burst cannons, which was my whole army, so they could shoot at the unit. The unit, 16 wounds left, died.

The same thing can be done to necrons with their VoD. Use something as a bait to get them somewhere so that when you unload, you have no risk of being hurt by anything else. I used a commander as bait (it's annoying not being able to hit them unless they're the closest, so it worked well).
 

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ITDP said:
Chaos
HQ
Daemon lord
Daemonic speed, essence, strength, armor
Dual lightning claws
Infiltrate.
Thats a very good chaos lord. Kudos to your opponent. :yes:

Don't waste small arms fire on him, the number of shots needed to take him down is just depressing. He will die to one railgun shot though.

Troops
6 chaos marines with AC
1 melta and a powerfist on the AC, infiltrating

6 chaos marines with AC
same as above
I think this is the main weaknes of the chaos army. These squads are very small. Their biggest asset is the infiltration. Counter this with one of three tactics (or any combination):

1. Infiltrators of your own. Kroot are not as bad as people say. Especially against so small squads. If you can, then set up your kroot 7" in forest and shoot at the marines, then charge them when they get in range. Most important thing though is to infiltrate your kroot in a position that makes it difficult for the chaos player to use infiltrate effectively. Try to push him back and deny him obvious places to deploy. Its tricky, but can be done. Also... it does not seem like the chaos units have frag grenades... if that is the case then kroot in cover stand a good chance against a minimal squad of marines, even when the marines charge.

2. Mech. His units will rip through any number of firewarriors in cc. Deploy in fish to deny him the opportunity to charge you. The lord is fast, but the two marine squads can be easily outmanouvered. If there are no squads he can charge, then his lord will be open to your railguns. Also, with the small squads he fields the fish of fury tactic should work well. 6 marines cannot stand being rapidfired by a fish full of firewarriors.

3. Small and inexpensive squads as cannon fodder. Let the lord charge a minimal squad of firewarriors. He will kill them and then be left alone. Even if he consolidates into cover you have a chance to kill him with a couple of railgun shots. Place one or two minimal squads in a forward position during setup. That will push back his deployment and limit the area where he can infiltrate. Preferably place them so that assaulting them will force him to not run directly towards your main line. This should work well with some infiltrating kroot since it will let your deny him a large portion of the table.

In any case suits with low ap weapons are the way to go with regard to killing marines. And in my honost opinion your best bet is to stay as far away from that lord as you can. He is so fast that any unit attempting to shoot at him runs the risk of getting assaulted. It goes without saying that should he ever be caught out in the open you should really let him have it with railguns and low ap weapons.

Heavy

Predator
TL lascannon with two sponsoon lascannons
Mutated hull, daemonic posession

Defiler
Battle cannon, TL lascannon, Havoc Launcher
Mutated hull
Those are amazingly expensive. And some of the upgrades seem kinda silly. The defiler cannot fire lascannons or havoc launcher in the same round it shoots the battlecannon. Be sure to keep this in mind. Also, even with the expensive mutated hull upgrade both of these vehicles die quickly to railgun fire. Broadsides could be an idea for you. They are not the most popular of choices, but they should do nicely against necron destroyers and monolith as well.

And anyway, he should not have a range advantage against you. So if he can sit back and outshoot you at the same time as he rips you apart in cc, then something is wrong.

Arizzar
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
I did manaage to beat him, using the tactics you suggested, though this happened before you suggested them. Sorry to steal your thunder. I deployed the kroot in a straight line across the board at the edge of coherency. Luckily, I just happened to place a rather large forest right there. A 20" line of kroot right across the center of the board. That irritated him something fierce. I sacrificed a suit to get his lord alone and reduced him to his base elements courtesy of a Railgun. I used a fish squad of firewarriors with EMP grenades to destroy (actually blow up) his predator and another lucky shot with my railgun to destroy his Defiler. I say lucky because I almost always fail with railguns.

On a side note, I have no broadsides or I would have used them.

And his guys did have frag grenades.
 
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