Instant Death + Vulnerable to Blasts

1001 Views 17 Replies 5 Participants Last post by tarzen, Feb 13, 2006

GeekSlayer

Discussion Starter · Feb 9, 2006

Last night I blasted a squad of rippers with a battlecannon, and got 4 hits. All of them wounded. The BC is high enough strength to insta-kill the ripper swarms, no question there. The problem lies in the whole "templates inflict 2 wounds per failed armor save" deal on the swarm bases. By the letter of the rules as I read them, the doubling is applied before the wounds are allocated to the individual models. It seems that the 4 wounds are doubled to 8, which are then allocated to 8 separate models, since they'll pop em in one hit. This seems... stupid. you'd have a hard time fitting 8 models in an ordinance template in anything other than optimal conditions. This is the first rules question that has truly stumped me--it just seems so counterintuitive. Any help would be appreciated.

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Ostsol

· #2 · Feb 9, 2006

Here's how I understand the rules:

It says that unsaved wounds are doubled. As such, you allocate the wounds before doubling them, meaning that only four could have been killed.

For example, if you had four Ripper bases under the template, you would roll four wounds. If all four successfully wounded, then you would apply those wounds to four models. Next comes saves. No save is possible, so each model receives two wounds. The wounds were caused by a weapon that could insta-kill them so the four models were killed.

GeekSlayer

Discussion Starter · #3 · Feb 9, 2006

If that were the case, wouldn't the 'models with multiple wounds' rule apply, where you have to allocate wounds to a single model until they're dead? You'd be forced to apply the 4 wounds to one base + 1 wound on another base, as the rippers have 3 wounds, I think. That would translate into 2 dead bases, 1 from wounds, and 1 from insta-pop.

Ostsol

· #4 · Feb 9, 2006

That's actually a topic that's been debated quite often, rather headedly too. There's the school of thought that says one allocates wounds to a model until it dies, and the other that says one allocates enough wounds to kill it. In the former interpretation, wounds are allocated as you just descibed. In the latter interpretation, only one wound need be allocated per model, since the weapon can insta-kill. Unfortunately, I don't know of any official text saying which is correct.

GeekSlayer

Discussion Starter · #5 · Feb 9, 2006

Well, that makes me feel good, that I'm not the only one caught by the ambiguity of the rules in this case. We handled it using 'common sense' last night, that the blast blew the crap out of just those 4 bases. The double wound thing just indicated that there was an extra big green stain on the ground afterwards. We just didn't see how a template weapon could kill more models then could fit underneath--I was in no hurry to rules-lawyer my way into a couple of cheap kills.

tarzen

· #6 · Feb 9, 2006

The rules for wounds say that each model must have one before the next one gets two. It also goes to say that units of multi wound models must remove whole models p 27 as much as possible.

Put them together you get each hit inflicts a wound-no save-taht wound becomes two but has already insta killed the model.

Order of shooting is
determine hits
determine majority toughness
roll for wounds against the whole unit based on majority toughness
determine majority armour and assign wounds as per mixed armour
Roll saves based on each armour type.

4 hits to the squad
4 wounds
4 wounds assigned to 4 bases.
4 bases get no save and each take a wound. that wound is doubled. either will kill the model and excess wounds never spill over past the models they were assigned to.

It's all in the bgb, mostly under p 18-28, and p 76

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GeekSlayer

Discussion Starter · #7 · Feb 9, 2006

That's the way we did it, but aside from ICs, I thought wounds aren't applied to models, they're applied to squads.

Here's another example: suppose I flamer the same squad, causing 2 wounds. Do we apply the 2 wounds to one base, which is then doubled to 4, overkilling the model just a little bit, or do we double the wounds, then allocate 4 wounds to the squad, killing one and wounding another? With things like Implant Attack, or needle of desire, the extra wounds come into play when allocated to the model. With the vulnerable thing, it seems to come into play when the wound is recieved in the first place--right after the armor save. If only the wording was consistent...

tarzen

· #8 · Feb 9, 2006

GeekSlayer said:
That's the way we did it, but aside from ICs, I thought wounds aren't applied to models, they're applied to squads.

nope, check wounding and removing casualties. Applied to models

Here's another example: suppose I flamer the same squad, causing 2 wounds. Do we apply the 2 wounds to one base, which is then doubled to 4, overkilling the model just a little bit, or do we double the wounds, then allocate 4 wounds to the squad, killing one and wounding another? With things like Implant Attack, or needle of desire, the extra wounds come into play when allocated to the model. With the vulnerable thing, it seems to come into play when the wound is recieved in the first place--right after the armor save. If only the wording was consistent...

it would be the later, as you keep track of floating wounds (p 27). so 2 models have 4 wounds, each capable of only 3. At this point, we must remove one model and keep the floating wound hanging in space as a reminder p 27.

And the wording is concise.
"each unsaved wound counts as two wounds rather than one"

Ylide

· #9 · Feb 12, 2006

I had the same situation come up with powerfists in an assault with multi-wound models. I posted this in a similar thread, but here's the scenario since this thread is more applicable:

Say I have a chaos champion with a powerfist in combat with a squad of 3 crisis suits, which are T4 and have 2 wounds each. If I inflict 3 wounds, do I apply 2 wounds to one suit, then 1 wound to another which is then insta-killed due to taking a wound from a Tx2 weapon or does each suit take 1 wound and are then all insta-killed?

The rule simply says whole multi-wound models must be removed as casualties whenever possible...I cannot interpret this to this situation as whole multi-wound models are removed in both instances...it's just whether it's 2 or 3 of them.

I think I remember clarification (in a FAQ maybe?) that wounds should be assigned so that the most possible models are removed, which implies the "apply one wound to each insta-killable model" scenario is correct.

tarzen

· #10 · Feb 13, 2006

Ylide said:
I had the same situation come up with powerfists in an assault with multi-wound models. I posted this in a similar thread, but here's the scenario since this thread is more applicable:

Say I have a chaos champion with a powerfist in combat with a squad of 3 crisis suits, which are T4 and have 2 wounds each. If I inflict 3 wounds, do I apply 2 wounds to one suit, then 1 wound to another which is then insta-killed due to taking a wound from a Tx2 weapon or does each suit take 1 wound and are then all insta-killed?

The rule simply says whole multi-wound models must be removed as casualties whenever possible...I cannot interpret this to this situation as whole multi-wound models are removed in both instances...it's just whether it's 2 or 3 of them.

I think I remember clarification (in a FAQ maybe?) that wounds should be assigned so that the most possible models are removed, which implies the "apply one wound to each insta-killable model" scenario is correct.

p 26, top right side. each model recieves a wound, thus three suits dead.

Again, each model gets a wound, then all three instant death.

LordHat

· #11 · Feb 13, 2006 (Edited)

Whenever a model takes a wound there is a "hidden" procedure that everyone goes through, usually without realizing it: First you assign the wound, then you have to ask does this wound kill the model?

Usually the answer to this question is yes, and the model is removed. However Multiple wound models are different, and the answer may be no. When sets of wounds are assigned to multple wound models in a unit, there is a clarifying rule to make sure that those wounds have the most effect possible on the target unit. Therefor if the answer is no, you assign another wound and ask the question again, repeating the process till the model receives enough wounds to be removed, or all wounds are allocated. VtB rule just makes this even more complicated by doubling the number of wounds applied to the unit. Instant Death simplifies this procedure again, by allowing a single wound to once again kill a single model. So by continuing to follow the rules for removing multiple wound models to achieve the greatest effect, you remove one model per wound.

If a unit of 10 VTB bases (Let's say scarabs) get's hit by a instant kill template, and then recieves 5 wounds, those wounds are doubled to 10, and then you remove 10 bases.

1. Vtb rule states that wounds done to a unit, not to models, are doubled. (Pg. 76 BGB)
2. Multiple wound models MUST be removed WHENEVER possible. (Pg. 27 BGB)
3. When a model takes a wound from a weapon whose strength is double it's toughness it is removed IMMEDIATELY. (Pg. 27 BGB inside the box).
4. Wounds may not be allocated to AVOID removing models (pg. 27 BGB)

So the above scenario would look like this:

1. the unit takes wounds from a template (whether from failed cover saves, or pierced armor doesn't matter).
2. The wounds are doubled.
3. One wound is assigned to each model killing it instantly, till all wounds are allocated, or all models have been removed.

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tarzen

· #12 · Feb 13, 2006

LordHat said:
If a unit of 10 VTB bases (Let's say scarabs) get's hit by a instant kill template, and then recieves 5 wounds, those wounds are doubled to 10, and then you remove 10 bases.

no, as the wounds have been inflicted before the doubling as you can see below.

1. Vtb rule states that wounds done to a unit, not to models, are doubled. (Pg. 76 BGB)
2. Multiple wound models MUST be removed WHENEVER possible. (Pg. 27 BGB)
3. When a model takes a wound from a weapon whose strength is double it's toughness it is removed IMMEDIATELY. (Pg. 27 BGB inside the box).
4. Wounds may not be allocated to AVOID removing models (pg. 27 BGB)

So the above scenario would look like this:

1. the unit takes wounds from a template (whether from failed cover saves, or pierced armor doesn't matter).
2. The wounds are doubled.
3. One wound is assigned to each model killing it instantly, till all wounds are allocated, or all models have been removed.

and you're totally skipping over the whole issue about removing casualties and assigning wounds, aren't you.

5 wounds means five doubly dead scarabs.

You've got your 2 and 3 mixed up, try again.
To hit
Find majority toughness
Roll to wound vs majority toughness (or lowest in case of a tie)
Remove any models that are wounded and don't get a save
Apply 1 wound to each model based on majority save, starting with majority, and then proceeding as you wish without applying a second wound unitl every model has a first.
Wrap around, starting with majority save again.
Note: torrent of fire allows the shooter to nominate ONE model to make A save. The owner decides against which weapon.
Remove casualties from the appropriate saves, all extra wounds are lost

so, if I have 5 shots, all wound vs 2 termies and a master in powerarmour, 2 hits go to termies, 1 to master, 2 more to termies. shooter can say the termi with the assault cannon must take a save, so I roll his save seperately. then roll the termies, and the master. If I fail all four termie saves, they in no way spill over to the master, as he only has one wound to save against.

In the case of three different armours, it goes like.

Tactical squad (4 marines) with master in termi armour and apoth with 4++ gets hit with 11 shots. first four go to tact marines, next one goes to either master or apoth, next after that goes to the other, then start over, 4 more wounds to the tact squad, and one more wound to either master or apoth. 8 saves for the tact squad, 1 or two for the master, 2 or 1 for apoth. if the tact sqaud fails all 8, those wounds don't spill to any one else.

Same goes for your scarabs

5 hits vs 10 bases. one wound applied to each, which will instand death the 5 bases. Those wounds are then doubled, as they have been applied, as per Vtb.

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LordHat

· #13 · Feb 13, 2006 (Edited)

tarzen said:
no, as the wounds have been inflicted before the doubling as you can see below.

and you're totally skipping over the whole issue about removing casualties and assigning wounds, aren't you.

5 wounds means five doubly dead scarabs.

You've got your 2 and 3 mixed up, try again.
To hit
Find majority toughness
Roll to wound vs majority toughness (or lowest in case of a tie)
Remove any models that are wounded and don't get a save
Apply 1 wound to each model based on majority save, starting with majority, and then proceeding as you wish without applying a second wound unitl every model has a first.
Wrap around, starting with majority save again.
Note: torrent of fire allows the shooter to nominate ONE model to make A save. The owner decides against which weapon.
Remove casualties from the appropriate saves, all extra wounds are lost

so, if I have 5 shots, all wound vs 2 termies and a master in powerarmour, 2 hits go to termies, 1 to master, 2 more to termies. shooter can say the termi with the assault cannon must take a save, so I roll his save seperately. then roll the termies, and the master. If I fail all four termie saves, they in no way spill over to the master, as he only has one wound to save against.

In the case of three different armours, it goes like.

Tactical squad (4 marines) with master in termi armour and apoth with 4++ gets hit with 11 shots. first four go to tact marines, next one goes to either master or apoth, next after that goes to the other, then start over, 4 more wounds to the tact squad, and one more wound to either master or apoth. 8 saves for the tact squad, 1 or two for the master, 2 or 1 for apoth. if the tact sqaud fails all 8, those wounds don't spill to any one else.

Same goes for your scarabs

5 hits vs 10 bases. one wound applied to each, which will instand death the 5 bases. Those wounds are then doubled, as they have been applied, as per Vtb.

However the VTB rule explicitly states that wounds to the UNIT are doubled.

1. when shooting at a unit you roll to wound vs. majority toughness (we agree here), then roll to save using majority save(also in agreeance) THEN using VtB you double the wounds to the UNIT. Then apply the wounds. Unlike 3rd edition, hits are not applied to individual models, they are applied to the unit as a whole using majority toughness and majority saves. (torrent of fire is an exeption to this rule). Only wounds that are not saved are applied to individual models, and only after saving throws are attempted.If VtB said wounds against MODELS were doubled, then you would be correct. Since wounds against the UNIT are doubled BEFORE applying them to the MODELS, the mixed armor rules apply after the VtB rules.

Ex: 9 Scarabs 1 I.C.: same scenario. After majority toughness, there are 5 wounds rolled against the Unit. VtB states we double the number of wounds applied to the unit to 10.Normally this wouldn't be a problem since you would just allocate 3 wounds per base till all the wounds were allocated, but since the rules on mutliple wound models says the wounds cannot be spread around to avoid removing models, and the weapon causes instant death, 9 scarabs are removed, and the I.C. makes one saving throw attempt.

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tarzen

· #14 · Feb 13, 2006

LordHat said:
However the VTB rule explicitly states that wounds to the UNIT are doubled.

no, it says unsaved wounds are doubled. Meaning the wounds have been assigned to a model first.

LordHat

· #15 · Feb 13, 2006

Maybe we have different books.... Mine says unsaved wounds to the unit. is yours printed in English? I know that GW products printed in other languages tend to be more precice due to the translation procedure, ironically enough.

tarzen

· #16 · Feb 13, 2006

LordHat said:
Maybe we have different books.... Mine says unsaved wounds to the unit. is yours printed in English? I know that GW products printed in other languages tend to be more precice due to the translation procedure, ironically enough.

No, same book "if the unit is a non-vehicle, each UNSAVED wound counts as two wounds rather than one" (emphasis mine)

Again, it comes down to how you apply wounds. If you've failed the save, the wound has already been applied to a model. than tha model now takes two wounds.the first one instant death's it, so does the second.

You'll also note that EACH wound counts as two, not double the wounds, then save. If that were the case, you'd be right, 5 wounds vs 10 bases would kill 10 bases.

Clear that up?

LordHat

· #17 · Feb 13, 2006

Except you're wrong.... If that was the case, then you wouldn't be able to choose which models die during the "remove casualties step", as each wound would already have been assigned, yes? You assign wounding hits to save types, not exceeding the amount of each save until you can wrap around, then you make saving throws, THEN assign the wounds.

BgB pg 76,mixed armour, bullet 5: "Unsaved wounding hits must be applied to models with the same armour TYPE that was used for the save."

Nowhere in the Rules does it say you single out individual models until casualty removal, or "assigning wounds".

So in the above scenario, you would roll for saves, then double unsaved wounds, then assign them to individual models. Which would be 9 dead scarabs, and one discarded wound, since the I.C. didn't attempt a save, and could not have a wound applied to his save type. (I was wrong about this earlier....)

I think the confusion here is the term "wounding hits", which technically are not wounds until svaes have been thrown, or negated by AP.

1. Hits are applied to majority toughness, those that "wound" are "wounding hits".
2. "wounding hits" are applied to armor types using the rules on pg 76, if more than one type is present. Any failed saves are "wounds".
3. Wounds are then applied as the OWNING player sees fit, following the restriction that the model assigned each wound must be of the same save type that failed the save it gets assigned.

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tarzen

· #18 · Feb 13, 2006

LordHat said:
Except you're wrong.... If that was the case, then you wouldn't be able to choose which models die during the "remove casualties step", as each wound would already have been assigned, yes? You assign wounding hits to save types, not exceeding the amount of each save until you can wrap around, then you make saving throws, THEN assign the wounds.

BgB pg 76,mixed armour, bullet 5: "Unsaved wounding hits must be applied to models with the same armour TYPE that was used for the save."

yes, but models without a save are removed first.-ends that discussion right there.

Nowhere in the Rules does it say you single out individual models until casualty removal, or "assigning wounds".

most notably-under removing casaulties-p 26 top right paragraph "When a unit suffers wounding hits, each will affect a different model"

So in the above scenario, you would roll for saves, then double unsaved wounds, then assign them to individual models. Which would be 9 dead scarabs, and one discarded wound, since the I.C. didn't attempt a save, and could not have a wound applied to his save type. (I was wrong about this earlier....)

nope, even this is wrong. only after the wounds are applied (to a model) are they then doubled. check the wording again.

I think the confusion here is the term "wounding hits", which technically are not wounds until svaes have been thrown, or negated by AP.

1. Hits are applied to majority toughness, those that "wound" are "wounding hits".
2. "wounding hits" are applied to armor types using the rules on pg 76, if more than one type is present. Any failed saves are "wounds".
3. Wounds are then applied as the OWNING player sees fit, following the restriction that the model assigned each wound must be of the same save type that failed the save it gets assigned.

check the rules for wounding. Each wound is assigned to ONE model.

Further, since there is no save, the models are removed for each wound, then saved, again p 76 there.

so 5 wounds kills five not 10.

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