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i'd say the assassin get's the save because he is side stepping the attack to get his invulnerable save and so no armour is bypassed (unless you call air armour). but im sure you'll play against a cheesy player and he'll demand that the save is negated.
 

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Nope. The problem with these things is that at first, all inv saves were equal because nothing ignored them. Now some things do ignore inv saves, including dodge, even though it doesn't make any sense.
 

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They should do away with generic inv saves and make 3 new kinds of save: psychic/warp based, wargear and dodges. The first one would be Daemonic Auras, saves gained by psychic equipment etc, the second would be force fields, crux terminatus etc, whilst the third is obvious :p . The first 2 could be ignored by certain potent weapons, sometimes one type will be ignored whilst the others isn't, and dodge saves could be ignored by shooting weapons that use any template, but nothing else (including Dreadaxe, C'Tan etc). This would make a lot more sense.
 

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It really depends on who you are playing. I would let you take that save, but some people......
I agree BiD, they should categorize the saves that way. But for the time being i suggest just sharing your point with the opposing player.
 

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You have to remember that GW made this game simple enough that 6 year olds can play when they released 3rd edition so they could make more money. They said they would never have Wargear that you would ever get into arguements about like 2nd edition, with one cancelling another. So, even though they blew that idea out of the water, they still try to keep some order. To make it easy, all armour saves are armour saves and all invulnerable saves are invulnerable saves. If an item ignores armour saves, no matter what armour you have, it ignores it. Same for invulnerable saves.

We don't all like it as you mentioned it doesn't always make sense. But it's their game, and a lot of what they do doesn't make sense a lot of the time.. so we live with it. I doubt they'd make 3 types of invulnerable saves, that'd never work in their eyes.
 

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This rule was made in order to avoid exactly this confusion, debates about "you can't ignore my safe, it's a XYZ-type invulnerable save and you can only ignore ABC-type and DEF-type invulnerable saves". It keeps things simple, and rulefide it doesn't matter at all if a 4++ save is a dodge save or a force field based save - rulewise it's just 4++ and included in the point cost.

However, even fluffywise the negation of a dodge save by a warscythe can be justified: The blade is phase shifted, and therefore possibly invisible. You can hardly dodge something that you can't see.

jwu
 

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Now that we have a topic with dodge saves, has anyone noticed how little sense they make? I mean, to dodge something means that you step/jump out of the way so it won't hit you. However, if you make a dodge save, the weapon has already hit you.
 

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Originally posted by BorninDarkness@May 22 2003, 14:10
Now that we have a topic with dodge saves, has anyone noticed how little sense they make? I mean, to dodge something means that you step/jump out of the way so it won't hit you. However, if you make a dodge save, the weapon has already hit you.
Your important organs jump out of the way. :D They just move away from the bullot or the sword.
 

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The usual procedure doesn't make sense either - you roll to hit, then roll to wound. After you already were wounded, the armor save can protect you. That's just for simplicity's sake, if the attacker rolls to hit and to wound first, then the dice have to be handed over only once.

Imagine it like this: All the things, the to hit rolls, to wound rolls and saves are just theoretical, they are taken before the actual attacks are made. If a wound is deflected by a dodge save, then this means that the attacker would have hit and wounded his target if there wouldn't have been that dodge save. You get the (useless) information that he could have killed his victim, but when your model actually tried it, then he misses and the fact that he would have been strong enough to wound that model (which is already determined) doesn't matter anymore.

jwu
 

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The armour saves last may be a psychological thing: the guy whose troops are getting shot has one last chance to save them, if he fails they die.
As for the theoretical thing, you might have a point, but I still think it's weird.
 

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The "dodge" save is silly. In the main book it explains how armor saves take into account the speed and agility of the wearer, how hard they are to target, etc... So, although eldar are only wearing spandex with neoprene padding, they still have a 5+ save.
 

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I agree that the saves take into account everything and I think most of the time it makes sense but I personally think that the dodge ability instead of giving the person a invulnerable save should give the opponents like a -1 or -2 modifier to their to hit dice instead... it makes sense to me... seeing as dodging makes you harder to hit, or like the defend ability on eldar exarchs where they can only be hit on a 6 or something but they strike last or don't strike last in the case of the assasin whichever...
 
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