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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
The thread about Honorifica & CP made me think (always a worry!)

I wonder if there isn't a case for allowing Iron Discipline to be given to veteran sergeants as well officers (not ordinary sergeants - just veterans)

As anyone who's served knows, the backbone of the Army is the Non-Commissioned Man (Kipling).

Especially in CP where the whole command apparatus may not be present.

With detached squads led by a veteran I can well imagine the grizzled sergeant keeping his men in line despite the casualties.

Shades of Zulu

"Why are we fighting, why us, sarge, why, why??"

"Because we're here lad, and nobody else, now button up your tunic and join your mates!"

;)
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 · (Edited)
Yes, I know you can't as the rules stand, but should you be able to - i.e. if we get a "new" codex - should that be something that would be worth incorporating?

Certainly it's something I'm trying out in friendly games just to see how it works.

Bearing in mind grenadiers and storm troopers CAN'T take doctrines like die hard, it might make these elite units stick around a bit longer??




The 'Eathen

THE ’EATHEN in ’is blindness bows down to wood an’ stone;
’E don’t obey no orders unless they is ’is own;
’E keeps ’is side-arms awful: ’e leaves ’em all about,
An’ then comes up the regiment an’ pokes the ’eathen out.

All along o’ dirtiness, all along o’ mess,
All along o’ doin’ things rather-more-or-less,
All along of abby-nay, kul, an’ hazar-ho,
Mind you keep your rifle an’ yourself jus’ so!


The young recruit is ’aughty—’e draf’s from Gawd knows where;
They bid ’im show ’is stockin’s an’ lay ’is mattress square;
’E calls it bloomin’ nonsense—’e doesn’t know no more—
An’ then up comes ’is Company an’ kicks ’im round the floor!

The young recruit is ’ammered—’e takes it very ’ard;
’E ’angs ’is ’ead an’ mutters—’e sulks about the yard;
’E talks o’ “cruel tyrants” ’e’ll swing for by-an’-by,
An’ the others ’ears an’ mocks ’im, an’ the boy goes orf to cry.

The young recruit is silly—’e thinks o’ suicide;
’E’s lost ’is gutter-devil; ’e ’asn’t got ’is pride;
But day by day they kicks ’im, which ’elps ’im on a bit,
Till ’e finds ’isself one mornin’ with a full an’ proper kit.


Gettin’ clear o’ dirtiness, gettin’ done with mess,
Gettin’ shut o’ doin’ things rather-more-or-less;
Not so fond of abby-nay, kul, nor hazar-ho,
Learns to keep ’is rifle an’ ’isself jus’ so!


The young recruit is ’appy—’e throws a chest to suit;
You see ’im grow mustaches; you ’ear ’im slap ’is boot;
’E learns to drop the “bloodies” from every word ’e slings,
An’ ’e shows an ’ealthy brisket when ’e strips for bars an’ rings.

The cruel-tyrant-sergeants they watch ’im ’arf a year;
They watch ’im with ’is comrades, they watch ’im with ’is beer;
They watch ’im with the women at the regimental dance,
And the cruel-tyrant-sergeants send ’is name along for “Lance”.

An’ now ’e’s ’arf o’ nothin’, an’ all a private yet,
’Is room they up an’ rags ’im to see what they will get;
They rags ’im low an’ cunnin’, each dirty trick they can,
But ’e learns to sweat ’is temper an’ ’e learns to sweat ’is man.

An’, last, a Colour-Sergeant, as such to be obeyed,
’E schools ’is men at cricket, ’e tells ’em on parade;
They sees ’em quick an’ ’andy, uncommon set an’ smart,
An’ so ’e talks to orficers which ’ave the Core at ’eart.

’E learns to do ’is watchin’ without it showin’ plain;
’E learns to save a dummy, an’ shove ’im straight again;
’E learns to check a ranker that’s buyin’ leave to shirk;
An’ ’e learns to make men like ’im so they’ll learn to like their work.

An’ when it comes to marchin’ he’ll see their socks are right,
An’ when it comes to action ’e shows ’em ’ow to sight;
’E knows their ways of thinkin’ and just what’s in their mind;
’E knows when they are takin’ on an’ when they’ve fell be’ind.

’E knows each talkin’ corpril that leads a squad astray;
’E feels ’is innards ’eavin’, ’is bowels givin’ way;
’E sees the blue-white faces all tryin’ ’ard to grin,
An’ ’e stands an’ waits an’ suffers till it’s time to cap ’em in.

An’ now the hugly bullets come peckin’ through the dust,
An’ no one wants to face ’em, but every beggar must;
So, like a man in irons which isn’t glad to go,
They moves ’em off by companies uncommon stiff an’ slow.

Of all ’is five years’ schoolin’ they don’t remember much
Excep’ the not retreatin’, the step an’ keepin’ touch.
It looks like teachin’ wasted when they duck an’ spread an’ ’op,
But if ’e ’adn’t learned ’em they’d be all about the shop!

An’ now it’s “’Oo goes backward?” an’ now it’s “’Oo comes on?”
And now it’s “Get the doolies,” an’ now the captain’s gone;
An’ now it’s bloody murder, but all the while they ’ear
’Is voice, the same as barrick drill, a-shepherdin’ the rear.

’E’s just as sick as they are, ’is ’eart is like to split,
But ’e works ’em, works ’em, works ’em till he feels ’em take the bit;
The rest is ’oldin’ steady till the watchful bugles play,
An’ ’e lifts ’em, lifts ’em, lifts ’em through the charge that wins the day!


The ’eathen in ’is blindness bows down to wood an’ stone;
’E don’t obey no orders unless they is ’is own;
The ’eathen in ’is blindness must end where ’e began,
But the backbone of the Army is the non-commissioned man!

Keep away from dirtiness—keep away from mess.
Don’t get into doin’ things rather-more-or-less!
Let’s ha’ done with abby-nay, kul, an’ hazar-ho;
Mind you keep your rifle an’ yourself jus’ so!


Kipling
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Interestingly I think all guardmen should have vortex grenades for one point each, may try that out

Not with a BS of somewhere between something and something else.

"Whaddya mean you dropped it!!

My point was that in certain circumstances iirc Veteran Sergeants can take "Officer Only"items?

So it wouldn't be a great leap to allow Veteran Sergeants in already elite/veteran squads - i.e. ST, Grenadiers, Hardened Vets to have the ID ability for the appropriate points cost.

Obviously the "official" rules don't allow it, but I think it would be fluffy for future editions :)
 

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Born from Tears of Angels
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Not with a BS of somewhere between something and something else.

"Whaddya mean you dropped it!!

My point was that in certain circumstances iirc Veteran Sergeants can take "Officer Only"items?

So it wouldn't be a great leap to allow Veteran Sergeants in already elite/veteran squads - i.e. ST, Grenadiers, Hardened Vets to have the ID ability for the appropriate points cost.

Obviously the "official" rules don't allow it, but I think it would be fluffy for future editions :)
A vet sergeant is nothing more than a mere guardsman, he might be good, he might have BS4 and have the ability to infiltrate but he is still nothing but an ordinary guardsman. The only reason why he has access to officer only stuff is because he was skillfull/lucky enough with his infiltration, and looting skills. After all, veterans are very adaptive to most environments, as specified in the codex so over the years of combat they simply retrieved those items from the enemies they killed. They will never reach the rank of an officer because it involves much more than a couple weeks of training as a standard guardsman. Imperium has its own training academy for officers, and only those individuals will have the privilage of obtaining (legaly) items from the entire Ig armory.
 

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I see how this could work

Some men/women learn leadership others are born with it. So it could be plausible that a veteran sergeant that has been leading groups of soldiers (possibly some of the same ones) for a few years, could of either been a born leader or learned the exact right things to say/do at the right moments.

Game wise i think a few things could be done (combine these things if you see fit)
Only 1 veteran sergeant per army can be given this (show rarity)

cost extra points

only applies to the unit the veteran sergeant is in

requires some form of a roll to work (a sergeant just does not have the trainning to pull if off EVERY time

can only be used during combat patrols

Can only be applied when there is no officer in the army (a soldier would probably look into the most experienced man on the field for guidance

you get the drift
any way im sure a group of friends would allow you to incorperate it into a few games.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
A vet sergeant is nothing more than a mere guardsman, he might be good, he might have BS4 and have the ability to infiltrate but he is still nothing but an ordinary guardsman. The only reason why he has access to officer only stuff is because he was skillfull/lucky enough with his infiltration, and looting skills. .....
Tosh! ;)

You try telling a Platoon Sergeant he's nothing more than a squaddie with light fingers and old age! ;?

NCOs are part of the chain of command right the way up to RSM.

In my experience - and although (very) limited I do actually have military experience - most soldiers are a damned sight more concerned about the Sergeants than some sprog Officer - however privileged and aristocratic his lineage. Indeed any Platoon Commander who didn't pay attention to his Sergeant was quite clearly an idiot who wouldn't retain the confidence of his men for very long. ;)

To move from reality to fiction - in how many movies and books about war or science fiction wars do we see the grizzled NCO either saving the men or keeping them fighting to the last round even when the Officer is down.

IMHO if you actually wanted to inject some "reality" into the IG and not have too many people with ID, you'd take it off the officers (apart from HSO only) and give exclusively to Veteran Sergeants.
 

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The Fallen
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hmm, but you are compairing IG to modern military, modern military is based on small arms tactics and small tems of highly skilled and motivated and excessively well trained individuals who are of great value, this is not the fluff behind IG who have more of a WW1 approach to combat, or even earlier.

Even the best special force list for IG, Elysian D-99, which uses vets as troops, and as iron discipline, only applies it from its officers
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
... highly skilled and motivated and excessively well trained individuals who are of great value, this is not the fluff behind IG who have more of a WW1 approach to combat, or even earlier.....
Well that's why I was thinking it must only apply to Grenadiers/Storm Troopers (& Vets) - aren't they supposed to the product of the schola something or other, highly trained etc.?

I agree giving "ordinary" squads the option would be counter to the fluff of massed infantry with just a sprinkling of officers & commissars.

I'm not insisting upon it, just floating it as an idea, I think Sendaf's suggestion of limiting it and/or maybe only for CP where we don't take Army HQs?
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
And rending lasguns, that should be tried out too :?
Personally I prefer man-portable twin-linked assault cannons with targeters, extended range, night sights and an automatic BS5 for +2pts each.

Game Balance??
 
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