Librarium Online Forums banner
1 - 20 of 30 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
44 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I am a keen IG player. I played against various armies (Necrons, Orks, Tyranid, Tau, Space Marines, Chaos Space Marines) but I have to admit that my greatest nightmare are Eldar.

I am talking about particlar Eldar army type - depending on minimum 2 Falcons (holofield + skimmer move more than 6" rule + permament possibilty of hiding this tank during the first turn MAKES IT SIMPLY IMPOSSIBLE TO DETROY) and some Wave Serpents transporting small squads of higly specialised and deadly dangerous aspect warriors which can easily kill me in close combat (Harlequins), destroy my tanks (fire dragons) or show what shooting is about (dire avengers with blade storm).

I played against Eldar about 30 times, and won 1 or 2.
Are they really unstopable and undetrostroyable ?

To begin with, I would like to make some remarks:
- I usually play friendly matches on a table which is 48 x 48 inches and I use about 8 terrains which are all 8x10" (one big forest, 2 covers you can see through, 2 covers (area terrain), 2 impassible terrains) or on a table 48 x 72 inches with a number of terrain doubled - I inform about it because of desparate looking for what may cause I almost always loose, (probably not) but maybe there's too much of terrain or it influences each battle in other way being in favour of an eldar player?

- we roll d6 to choose standard mission from rulebook and its level (so that i can never presume that i will be able to deep strike my forces)

- in practise it looks like he is always able to move his tanks from one terrain to another remaining not seen or not achievable for such a number of heavy weapons or other stuff which could realistically destroy sth

I believe that TO BE ABLE TO DEFEAT ELDAR AIR CAVALRY I HAVE TO STOP THEM FIRST.

Consequently, I depend on following things in my IG army:
- PLASMA GUN - the best weapon aginst Eldar tanks, having considere its strenght, rapid fire and point cost (except for meltagun which is theoretically better for Falcons, Serpents ignore meltagun's 'anti0tank effects), anyway I take plasma whwerever I can: in command platoon, in command squads, in minimalised hardened veteran squads (5 guys, 3 plasma each - 75 points), from time to time I use special weapon squads with melta and grenadiers, STATISTICALLY, CERTAINTY OF DESTROYING OR INFLICTING SERIOUS DAMAGE (LIKE IMMOBILISED RESULT) TO FALCON REQUIRES A NUMBER OF PLASMAGUNS SHOOTING ON RAPID FIRE MODE WHICH IS ABOUT FALCON'S POINTS COST MULTIPLIED BY 4 OR 5, it is impossible to provide such firepower as a part of your force when you have to face 2 or 3 falcons during the battle

- AUTOCANNON -second the best weapon, it seems to me that there are some problems with it however
1.it has (should in order to remain useful) to be stationary
2.the more I play the more problems I have concerning lack of line of sight (as a result of eldars' incredible movability) leading to not making good use of its range
Again I normally take hq supporting squads, sometimes heavy weapon platoons, infantry squads with autocannons, sentinels
p.s. lascannon is better only in the first turn when it is still possible to make a penetrating hit but falcons are hidden, maybe I should use a few infiltrating lascannons with light infantry doctrine? Usually I do not take this one.

- in reference to THE REST i don't use missile launchers, I ocassionally take Basilisk or two (bearing in mind the first turn and possibility of having the first turn to fire indirectly before moves), I dont use tougher tanks, because of bright lances (which treat armour value higher than 12 like 12) - this seems to me to be to risky business

So finally, maybe the answer for my question is YES, THEY ARE UNDESTROYABLE.
Or maybe I should focus not on TANKS and ignore them as much as possible concentrate on killing eldars who will disembark and stop taking plasmas and autocannons.

Some IG players I spoke with maintain that mechanised armylists are pretty effective due to the fact that bright lances and fire dragons are quite expensive, but it did not convince me.

One guy, who is kind of a competitive player suggested taking conscripts and trying to deploy them in a way eldar will not have any good position to disembark or won't be even able to - I don't know how to do it, and I experienced having 1/3 army tank shocked by shaken falcons. Despite standard, iron discipline some squads ran away.

Sorry for writing such long thread.
I await Your suggestions.
Probably You got some better experience.
Thanx in advance for Your help.

FOR THE EMPEROR !
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
762 Posts
Are you playing against the same eldar player everytime? if so maybe your opponet has been able to specialise his/her list against your own...

If you dont show your opponet your army list before the game then throw a curveball at him/her... maybe run ALL infantry army so the antitank becomes useless. This will also alow you to focus your entire army fire on just the anti troop guns on your opponets side.

If your opponet is able to move from terrain piece to terrain piece as well as you said then you may have to much terrain (im not very good at judgeing this though)

One of my only people to play against uses eldar and all our games are really close, and i know how you feel

hope that helps a little
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
23 Posts
stopping eldar air cav

Well around here eldar are the main army played so I can give you a few pointers.

1. what ever they put into there falcon will be nasty. However it will be expensive, odds are they will need to kill at least 2 of your units to make up for the points cost. stay spread out and anytime he drops out troops try to cut them down quickly.

2. Hellhounds. Hellhounds work great against the eldar. The flamer can take out entire units with with no save! Bright lances hit like normal so no big deal there. Plus the loss of most eldar units is more points then a single hellhound.

most important advice DO NOT PANIC.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
126 Posts
Lol first off NO army and i mean NO army is unbeatable by guard. We have superior numbers, and superior guns (i mean in mass).

I have a competive friend who plays Eldar, and have regularly played against Eldar in tornes in the past 4 years.

Eldar are fragile and expensive and as their darker brothers have to be played very carefully to win.

Cover should be a 1/4 of your table thats it, grab the terrain and measure it that way. Obviously a assaulty or highly mobile elite army are gonna wanna go terrain hoping to hide from you.

1. There shouldn't be enough terrain for this, thats ridiculous amounts
2. You have like a 100 men , take the full length of the table (i do) if you got guns running all 72" of the table weres he gonna hid ?

If he does find a place to hide for a sec use indirect shots, or drop troop squads, heck even a leman at a 6" move should if placed well get to that hiding spot.

Use terrain too, deploy key units behind or in the best cover on your side, 4+ save guard
are awesome !

I mean ye, if your quarry goes to ground, leave no ground to go too.
 

·
The Fallen
Joined
·
7,745 Posts
As above, of course it isnt unbeatable, I regularly play against a mech eldar army, it has systematiccaly faile dto beat any of my armies, Admittedly my IG are Elysians so tend to deep strike, with demo charges, a lot of demo charges, which helps, and the vultures also put his tanks to shame on the manouverability front, but I have seen him beaten by other IG armies, what are you after? stuff that works? off the top of my head:


1. dont let him put harleys in serpents - it is illegal (i.e. know his stuff)
2. Mechanise, ~Chimera can pour out 6 str 6 shots, these can hurt any eldar tank,
3. Auto cannon are lethal because you can take out pretty much anything in an eldar army with one, overload
4. dont try and out manouver him, use split deployment and take down his transports, once aspect warriors have to foot slog towards a gun line they are dead meat, using split deployment pretty much assures you of this
5.Stuff that normally you wouldnt consider - do consider - eg mortar platoons - this will eat eldar infantry
 

·
Sparta!
Joined
·
1,438 Posts
As cher said, split your army and force him to split his. He wrote quite a good tactica on split deployment - have a look at that.
Also, can you give us an average list that you use? What points level? What's your normal strategy? What's he normally run in his lists? (apart from falcons)
Some general tips that can be offered:
1. Lascannons are a bit of a waste against eldar (except when firing at Wraithlords/guard and avatar)
2. Autocannons are your friend, so are Heavy Bolters to a lesser extent.
3. A chimera with Multi laser and HB or Autocannon and HB or even 2 HB's can throw quite a lot of firepower out, and the fact that the highest anti-tanks strength is 8 means it has the same life expectancy as a russ - and will most likely draw less firepower.
4. Sentinels could work
5. If you include HW squads include them in your Command HQ, that you you can deploy them after his heavies.
6. Draw his deployment out and split his army up. Go for a split deployment/victory flank approach.
 

·
Senior Member
Joined
·
709 Posts
My Leman Russes do well. What I do is set the Leman Russ up in cover so all I get are glancing hits at best, and I use the battle cannon fire lanes to deny the eldar avenues of approach. Battle cannons will kill anything the eldar have, and even their skimmers tend to suffer against them. Combined with a 72" range, you opponent will have to stay out of site, or face the wrath of your battle cannon. Deny eldar a means of approach, you deny him maneuverability, thus denying him his greatest advantage.

basilisks would also do wonders here, but it's not as direct or imposing as a russ.
 

·
Monkey Pirate
Joined
·
452 Posts
One of my favorite things to do against Eldar is deploy sentinel screens. A couple of walking tin cans works great for keeping your tanks alive. Basically all you have to do is take a unit of 3 sentinels and deploy them the max distance apart (4 inches for vehicle squadrons) This is Roughly a 16 inch wall you have between your juicy stuff and your enemy. At the vary least it buys you and extra turn to move troops into position and will help draw the falcons out. The great part is YOU nominate which sentinel takes damage so all of those can't move and shoot next turns can be lumped onto on sentinel. (correct me if I'm wrong its been ages since i've had a chance to review the rules.
 

·
RAWR! KROXIGOR!!
Joined
·
1,935 Posts
Rough Riders with hunting lances could be useful.

Fly them up a flank threatening skimmer rears with S5 charges (a long shot but worth it) and killing anything with less then I6 (keep away from harlies, exarchs and autarchs). Also great distractions/baits for units to waste a turn killing cavalry rather then flying toward your lines.

Either get no tanks (that are visable, basalisks are fine) or a shed load (as always).

Get less terrain. 1/4 terrain is supposed to be around what you should use (you are over that) but I see it more as an upper limit. Bellow 1/4 is fine (particulary for Imperial Guard) but over is to much of an advantage to fragile yet hard hitting armies or close combat armies.

Consider Light Infantry and/or Cameleoline. The former is to buy first turn shots at skimmers (remember that skimmers can still be penetrated if they don't move, I have forgotten this myself) and have reactionary deployment of key units. Cameleoline is to protect your vital squads (veterans, heavy weapons etc.).
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
2,425 Posts
The great part is YOU nominate which sentinel takes damage so all of those can't move and shoot next turns can be lumped onto on sentinel. (correct me if I'm wrong its been ages since i've had a chance to review the rules.
You distribute hits like against an infantry squad. There's no way to lump all of the damage on a single model unless it's over several turns. Nonetheless, a unit of 3 Sents. with autocannons or lascannons would be great to keep Eldar skimmers on their toes.

Katie D
 

·
Born from Tears of Angels
Joined
·
1,768 Posts
To state my personal opinion:
First off, anything is beatable, nothing is immortal/indestructible.

The player is running a heavy mechanized list. And I can bet my life that he has a unit of infiltrating scorpion, numbering at least 6. Therefore, the best you can do is to make sure those skimmers dont get to you to dliver the goods, now I know you dont like missile launchers but you should consider them because they pack a cheap and effective punch vs armor and they have Ap3 meaning they can ignore the save of any aspect warrior.
If you stick to infantry squads with plsma/auto and HW teams with missile launchers, than I realy thing that you can get a lot more progress.

1. Another tool that I found very useful is to have a small cheap rough rider unit that can act as a countercharger. If there is a unit of scorpion hiding in cover next to your front line where your guns cant reach them, that where the riders can countercharge them and buy time for the rest of the men to relocate into LOS or out of charge range.

2. I hate using tanks against eldar and dark eldar, they chew through them like through toilet paper with their lances so I would consider just droping the whole concept as russes Av becomes useless and basilisk is so inaccurate that chances are it wont hit anything, and the things that it will hit will not be wounded.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
86 Posts
Yes VET squads work a treat, infiltrate them in to cover his hiding spots and close up them firing lanes, then have heaps of heavy weapons and plasma to take out his tanks, try not too have heavy tanks, if you must, use it as a distraction, slam it through some jungles and make sure he moves into your heavy weapons. One of the best tricks to use too is the deepstriking VET suicide squads onto his tanks, or even the autocannon bearing sentinel.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
44 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Thanx for all you help so far.

Now, to answer some of your questions:

1. yes I play against the same eldar player everytime (although he doesn't use infiltrating scorpions as one of you presume)

2. my opponent claims that terrrain should cover aproximately 1/3 of our table

3. i'm not sure if Chimera can fire 6 shots with strenght 6 (it is only possible to equip it with one multi-laser and one heavy bolter (s:5) - this can't be used against eldar tanks) are there any other options (like 2 multi-lasers, or autocannon) in Imperial Armour ? If yes, then where?

3. some of you suggest spliting deployment - what about accumulating firepower?

4. rough riders are good counter-squad but do they have a chance to do anything with Initiative 3 (I guess that all eldars have 4 or higher) or you mean one turn while using hunting lances would be enough?

5. on one hand missile launcher has only shot per turn but on the other hand it has doubled chance to make a single glancing hit and can be used against tough stuff with sv 3+ as well i should consider using it

Exarch Thomo
wrote:
'...Also, can you give us an average list that you use? What points level? What's your normal strategy? What's he normally run in his lists? (apart from falcons)...'

- to answer this - these are 2 AVERAGE & TYPICAL 1000 POINTS ARMYLISTS taken from our latest battle

(48 x 48 inches, omega level, reckoon, 7 terrains: 2 area terrains in the midle and one impassable (practically good no fire lines at all) 2 covers, 1 big forest and another impassable in the corners - we used to put each piece of terrain on the table and after having all deployed to use scatter dice and 2d6 to make it more random but I will not agree to use this method again - i consider it absurd)

MY IG ARMY

DOCTRINES:
drop troops
iron discipline
sharpshooters
grenadiers
veterans

HQ
Command Platoon: JO (power weapon), veteran - standard, 3 flamers, IRON DISCIPLINE [79]

Fire support squad: 3 autocannons SHARPSHOOTERS [105]
Fire support squad: 3 autocannons SHARPSHOOTERS [105]

ELITES
Hardened Veteran Squad (5 guardsmen): 3 plasmy [75]
Hardened Veteran Squad (5 guardsmen): 3 plasmy [75]
Hardened Veteran Squad (5 guardsmen): 3 plasmy [75]

TROOPS
Infantry Platoon Alpha [248]
Command Squad: JO, veteran-medic, 3 plasmy, ID
Squad no 1: flamer, autocannon
Squad no 2: flamer, autocannon

Grenadiers (5): 2 plasmy [70]

FAST ATTACK
Sentinel: multi-laser [45]

HEAVY SUPPORT
Basilisk: Indirect fire [125]

TOTAL: 1002
IG TACTICA: To keep HQ Command Squad alive as close as possible to heavy weapons and infantry squads next to (in front of) them, to make good use of standard & iron discipline. In case of deep strike: to deep strike vets and sentinel ( I am not able to deep strike only part of the platoon, therefore I can't deep strike only infantry platoon's command squad can I?)
In case of no deep strike: to create 2 group (besides hq, standard infantry and heavy weapons) consisting of vets and infantry platoon and make advantage of taking good positions.
One thing I consider serious mistake was to split up forces and to try eliminate his tanks using vets without autocannons' support.


HIS ELDAR ARMY

HQ

Farseer [80]
-Doom

ELITES

6 Fire Dragons [113]
-Exarch
-Dragon Breathe's Flamer
-Crack shot

6 Fire Dragons [113]
-Exarch
-Dragon Breathe's Flamer
-Crack Shot

TROOPS

10 Dire Avengers[137]
-Exarch
-Exarch Avenger catapult

Wave Serpent [120]
-Shuriken Cannon
-Shuriken Cannon
-Spirit Stones

3 Jetbikes [66]

HEAVY SUPPORT

Falcon [195]
-Shuriken Cannon
-Shuriken Cannon
-Holo-Field
-Spirit Stones

Falcon [195]
-Shuriken Cannon
-Shuriken Cannon
-Holo-Field
-Spirit Stones

TOTAL: 999
ELDAR TACTICA: To hide tanks during the first turn (except for omega level), then to start to shoot at my key squads avoiding heavy weapon teams having line of sight, about 4th turn to fly up to 24 inches tank shocking half of my army - then he stops hiding from heavy weapon teams, in 5th turn he disembark all he can, in 6th he takes my deployment zone.

What do you think?
 

·
The Fallen
Joined
·
7,745 Posts
Thanx for all you help so far.

Now, to answer some of your questions:

1. yes I play against the same eldar player everytime (although he doesn't use infiltrating scorpions as one of you presume)
can you give us a rund down of his army?
2. my opponent claims that terrrain should cover aproximately 1/3 of our table
read the rule book, he is certainly spinning it to his advantage
3. i'm not sure if Chimera can fire 6 shots with strenght 6 (it is only possible to equip it with one multi-laser and one heavy bolter (s:5) - this can't be used against eldar tanks) are there any other options (like 2 multi-lasers, or autocannon) in Imperial Armour ? If yes, then where?
was that me? I bet it was, no you are right, although you can get some nice varriants from IA3, but dont forget you can get side armour too
3. some of you suggest spliting deployment - what about accumulating firepower?
Split deployment is a term that describes a tactic, not just where you deploy, go to the finished tactica section, there is a writeup
4. rough riders are good counter-squad but do they have a chance to do anything with Initiative 3 (I guess that all eldars have 4 or higher) or you mean one turn while using hunting lances would be enough?
I rather agree with you on this one, rough riders against eldar is a waste
5. on one hand missile launcher has only shot per turn but on the other hand it has doubled chance to make a single glancing hit and can be used against tough stuff with sv 3+ as well i should consider using it
against normal armour you are right, however Eldar tanks can survive hits from the strongest of guns, 2what brings them down is volume of fire (spirit stones and holofields on fast vehicles)


On army lists (not quoted becuase of space)
honestly, you have the better list, it is far more tuned to anti eldar than he is to IG, I would consider a couple of changes - ditch the flamers, eldar are too fast and will tend to skip right accross the range without a shot getting fired, on the other hand grenade launchers can get his tanks :)

Other thing is that basilisk, lethal against MEQs and foot slogging hoards, but a waste of points against him, I would trade that for more guns, even just sentinel auto cannon

recomend you look up split deployment tactica
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
44 Posts
Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Thanx. I took Bassie only in order to try to get one penetrate hit in the first turn, what is unlikely to happen however (too many conditions have to be fulfilled: I must have first turn, there mustn't be omega level when flacons and serpents start game from reserves and enter the table counting as moved).

Maybe in reference to the matches 2000 points ore more it is worth-considering to take Lord Solar Macharius, who has modified Master Strategist rule which allows me to choose whether to go first or second automatically (he is desribed in games workshop page but i think he is tooexpensive). It would probably be a waist of points.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
44 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
I have one more doubt.
Do I really need to include counter-charge squad? If Rough Riders are a waist I'd rather take numerous guards so that I can wipe out him with my numbers.

On the other hand I'm not sure If I would be able to avoid having tank shocked half an army.

The other plan could be to deploy whole army in a field which would be 24x24 inches maximum and to take Bassie to force him to choose between hiding somewhere in the battlefield and facing my whole firepower...
 

·
Monkey Pirate
Joined
·
452 Posts
You distribute hits like against an infantry squad. There's no way to lump all of the damage on a single model unless it's over several turns. Nonetheless, a unit of 3 Sents. with autocannons or lascannons would be great to keep Eldar skimmers on their toes.

Katie D
Thanks for that it has been a while ha ha
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
86 Posts
No no, rough riders are the best choice for counter-assault against eldar, you must have something fast, rough riders are quite capable of getting to the fight and smashing most foes, plus if he's silly, or your smart and he pays minimal attention to them, thinking that they are not that good, you can get some surprise hits on the rear of his tanks.....unlikely to happen but you could never do that with Ogryns or a counter Inf squad.

read the rule book, he is certainly spinning it to his advantage
I advocate strongly, read the rules several times over, when he questions it, show him!

was that me? I bet it was, no you are right, although you can get some nice varriants from IA3, but dont forget you can get side armour too
Isn't Eldar tanks front & side the same?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
593 Posts
another tactic to try would be a Light Infantry company with Vets:

Light Infantry
Deepstrike
Close Order Drill
Veterans
Special Weapon Squads ( or Heavy Weapon Platoon)

The thing with this is to have pretty much everything (except Vets, since they infiltrate anyway) with Light Infantry. I usually leave my HQ, with a mortar, and a Mortar squad without Light Inf. They're there to lob shells anyway, and should be out of sight.

Since everything infiltrates, he's got to deploy blind. If he has infiltrate, you'll have to flip a coin for who infiltrates first.

get into position with Vets with missile launchers and plasma to shoot tanks first round. This can be helped out by taking a DemonHunter Inquisitor with the Emperor's Tarot (a Grey Knight with psycannon is a good model for this, and the Psycannon will come in handy)

I'd equip your platoon squads with Autocannon, and sprinkle in some Heavy Bolters. Maybe even a few more missile launchers. Give all the squads plas as well.

Special Weapon teams will be handy as drop troops, I like a Demo charge and Plasma guns.



This is kind of becoming one of my favorite IG builds. Of course I tend to sprinkle in Inquisition toys, but old habits are hard to give up.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
44 Posts
Discussion Starter · #20 ·
I've decided to try for the very last time to defeat Eldar. He will take 2 flacons with 2 squads (6 members each) of Dire Avengers, Farseer with doom and other psychic stuff on a bike, and 2 squads of warp spiders (8 members each).

My answer is :

DOCTRINES:
Drop troops
Iron discipline
Kasrkins
Special Weapon Squads
Sharpshooters

HQ
Command Squad: JO (boltgun), veteran – standard (boltgun), 3 plasma IRON DISCIPLINE [98]
Special Weapon Squad: 3 melta SHARPSHOOTERS [90]

ELITES
Kasrkins: 2 plasma, deep strike [75]
Kasrkins: 2 plasma, deep strike [75]
Hardened Veterans: VSgt (plasma pistol), 3 plasma [86]

TROOPS
Infantry Platoon Alpha:
Command Squad: JO (boltgun), veteran – medic (boltgun), 3 plasma IRON DISCIPLINE [88]
Squad no 1: melta SHARPSHOOTERS [80]
Squad no 2: melta SHARPSHOOTERS [80]
Remnants (5): plasma [40]

Infantry Platoon Beta:
Command Squad: JO (boltgun), veteran – medic (boltgun), 3 plasmy IRON DISCIPLINE [88]
Squad no 1: melta SHARPSHOOTERS [80]
Squad no 2: melta SHARPSHOOTERS [80]
Remnants (5): plasma [40]

manpower: 86
firepower:
plasma wepons – 19
melta – 7
TOTAL: 1000

This list focuses on 3 issues:
1. it (unfortunetely) depends on gamma or omega level (use of deep strike)
2. it focuses on destroying eldar tanks
3. it considers plasma the most effective (taking into account movability, points cost and statistics, rapi fire) weapon against almost undestroyable skimmers with holo fields.
 
1 - 20 of 30 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top