Is this tank legal?

Neferata said:

No, you are not allowed to give side sponsons a 360 degree firing arc. Also, it is entirely possible to have both sponsons fire at one target (even on a land raider). I've seen it down many times. Sides sponsons have roughly a 220 degree firing arc in most cases (not just 180). Check the diagram in the core rule book under "vehicle shooting."

Click to expand...

I don't have my rulebook here, but I think I remember the diagram you are talking about. The firing arc from the two sponsons don't go straight forwards from the sides of the tank but instead angle across the front of the tank and in fact overlap a bit. That would be nice, because then you could theoretically have both sponsons, AND the main weapons and any other front mounted weapons fire on the same target.

However, isn't there somewhere else in the rules that says you must be able to draw a line of sight from the weapon to the target?

So which is it? That theoretical firing arc in the diagrram - or direct from the weapons los on the model? Also, if it's the diagrams arc then how do you figure out what that is - especially on different models.. (again with the LR, you can have the sponsons mounted towards the front, or the back - would this alter their firing arc?)

I would LOVE to get this clarrified because my opponents claim I must draw an LOS from the top of the weapon which is crap.

Well, yes, you do have to be able to draw LOS from the weapon itself. You can still attain the firing arc pictured in the rule book with most vehicles, as the turrets can swivel (unless you glue the weapon within the mount). In order to ahieve overlapping firing arcs, you usually must be a decent distance from the target. If you are at point blank range of your target, then dont expect overlapping firing arcs.

Also, its important to note, that if facing straight forward, firing at a spread out unit (or even a vehicle of the same size as yours), you should be able to "see" the unit with each weapon.

In the diagram provided, you'll see an example of what I mean.



As you can see in exhibit A, even without swiveling the weapons, the land raider is still able to shoot at the target with all guns.

In exhibit B, the land raider is only able to fire at target A with its heavy bolter and storm bolter, whereas he is able to fire at target B with one sponson, and target C with all weapons. (It of course would have to choose which target to fire at, as it cant fire at three separate units).

Granted, this is not the world's best drawing, but it still gets my point across. What I'm trying to say is that even though you have to draw LOS from the weapon itself, you will can still position your tank in such a way to hit the target with all guns. You won't always be able to do so, but then again, that's what makes the game more tactical and more realistic.

Hope that helps.

First, thanks for your reply and your diagrams are a great help.

I think most people believe the Example B is how it works. However - and if you have a land raider handy you can check this yourself - a LR will aways be in the situation pictured in Example A because the guns just can't be positioned like Example B. You can rotate the guns parallel to the hull, but no closer. This is probably the case with all of the tanks (I'll have to check).

I guess the solution to this is to just constantly "wiggle" down the field. That is, at the end of a tanks movement, rather than stay pointed in the direction I intend to keep going next turn, I should pivot the tank so that the maximum amount of its guns are pointed at some target. Then next turn I just pivot back to the path I want to move along and repeat.

That's find for vehicles that have the same armor on all sides, I guess.

Since LRs are sooo wide, what that really means is that as you approach the enemy you are intending to assault (w/ the troops inside your LR) your fire becomes less and less effective. How lame. Yes, I know I'm whining - I just want my really cool, really expensive, nicely painted model to be useful...

$H0urg1ass - I think you are not getting a definitive response because the rule book contradicts itself here. The rulebook is pretty clear about drawing a line of site from the weapons mount - but at the same time it has a picture clearly showing LOS lines crossing *through* the hull of the tank....

But wait a minute! I just realized something!

An earlier post mentioned that the rules say to draw the los from the weapons *mount* - NOT the barrel or tip of the weapon. And if you draw LOS from the mount, the line would actually cross through the hull of the tank! JUST LIKE IN THE PICTURE!

SO, if we draw Line of sight AND range from the MOUNT of the weapon - not up against the hull, but say the pivot point - they we have a nice consistent point to measure from for range, and tanks could fire all their weapons at a target as long as it (the target) was far enough out. You can also justify this easily by saying it represents the tank occasionally pivoting as it moves specifically to fire it's weapons.

What do you all think? At least it clarrifies something that previously had looked like a contradiction.

I already know why I'm not getting a definitive response.

It's because there is no definitive response. The rulebook contradicts itself, the heavy metal team contradicts the rules and tournament organizers (even GT organizers) dont have any definitive standards.

Simply put, there are no standards for how modeling effects shooting. None. Nowhere. I've looked it up in every book I can get my hands on. The BGB tells us how to draw line of sight from a standard issue tank, but it say absolutely nichts about drawing line of sight from converted tanks.

If you make a tank that has the bolter sponsons on the turret so that they also get a 360 degree view, then there's nothing in the rules that stops you. People can call you cheesy and make strange angry faces at you, but in the end they have to suck it up and move on because GW fails to make a distinction in this case.

In fact the only rule that we can draw on is the WYSIWYG rules and if someone puts their sponsons on the turret, then that's what you see and that's what you get. Too bad that you weren't smart enough to do the same thing with your own tank, but it's your own damn loss.