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Hive Fleet Pandora
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
There seems to be 2 camps on how Jaws of the World Wolf works.

The 1st camp says that Jaws, because it is a psychic shooting attack, needs to follow the rules for normal shooting attacks (unless explicitly told otherwise in its descriptions). Thus, as a shooting attack, it needs a target and LOS to that target.


The other camp claims that Jaws has its own targeting rules - that it doesn't need to select any target and thusly, because there is no target, then there is no LOS required. Thus, if the opponent had a model hiding behind a big building that blocks all LOS, Jaws can still be used to hit him.

How do you think Jaws works?
 

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Formerly Prince of Excess
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I follow the 2nd camp. I do disagree with the sniping ability which I would be shocked if it stayed after an FAQ. The wording suggests to me it doesn't need to hit, LoS etc. Although the SW Codex was written by illiterate idiots so anything is possible.
 

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The ORIGINAL Sniper Puss
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It's declared as a psychic shooting attack in order to prevent the Rune Priest from using any other ranged weapon (at least that's the way I read it). The RAW for JOTWW would suggest - to me anyway - it also does not need to adhere to the normal rules for shooting, ie LOS etc.

In other words, I'm in the 2nd camp too.

E.
 

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I agree that gw can be illiterate sometimes but I feel like the majority of these kind of problems stems from power gamers who want to do nothing but win. Now I'm not saying winning isn't important but if you and your friends don't have fun playing really what's the point? I refuse to play wiith people who run power lists that are completely unfluffy. Or people who try and bend the rules to win. Id much rather losse the a good playere then a hand me down list some1 on the internet came up wtih. As far as this question goes no where in the rules for Jaws does it say it ignores the rules for shooting so I'm inclined to go with the first
 

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Hive Fleet Pandora
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I'm with the first camp.

JotWW describes how it is used - that the RP "may trace a straight line along the board...ending 24" away". Does this then substitutes his need to have a target? Or is it just a description of how it is used subject to all the other requirements of shooting? Some people see this as crystal clear that he doesn't need a target. I, on the other hand, believe that this isn't clear at all. The description does not answer conclusively RAW-wise:

1) do you or do you not need LOS to the target?

2) do you or do you not need to select a target?

In the absence of such instructions, you have to fall back to the default rules as defined by shooting attacks in the BRB.

Actually, there is a target but instead of it being a unit, it is a model: "if the model fails the test, it is removed from play." However, that doesn't change the fact that you still need LOS to your target.
 

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I was wondering could you use this from inside a land raider? I think u could from a rhino, but there is no shooting points from a land raider. I do know you can use psychic powers from inside wave serpents as long as they arent shooting ones.
 

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Hive Fleet Pandora
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I was wondering could you use this from inside a land raider? I think u could from a rhino, but there is no shooting points from a land raider. I do know you can use psychic powers from inside wave serpents as long as they arent shooting ones.
If you follow the rules for psychic shooting attacks, then no, you wouldn't be able to use it from inside a LR as you have no LOS because there are no fire points.

However, if you follow the camp that says you don't need a target or LOS, then yes you should be able to use it from within a LR. In this case, you don't need fire points because you don't need LOS. I feel that this is totally wrong and not the Rules-as-Intended (RAI). RAW-wise, there is nothing to justify you being able to do this.
 

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Im in the 2nd camp.
No where does it say you have to target ANYTHING.
You just point a direction and let it fly.
Why would terrain block it?
Anything under the line takes the check.
 

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Hive Fleet Pandora
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Im in the 2nd camp.
No where does it say you have to target ANYTHING.
You just point a direction and let it fly.
Why would terrain block it?
Anything under the line takes the check.

The thing is, it doesn't say ANYTHINGabout targeting.

Imagine if Jaws was an actual gun and its description says: the RP may shoot a straight line along the board...ending 24" away.

Great, it's just told you how it is used.

Just because it doesn't mention about targeting does not mean there is no target. It doesn't have to. The default is that you need a target and you need to be able to see that target. Unless it explicitly says otherwise (which it doesn't), you have to follow the rules as defined under shooting attacks.
 

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second camp for sure

the target is the the point 24" away, which doesn't have to be in line of sight since that line can go through anything.

and then, any models that happen to fall in this line, suffer the effects of the power and take the checks.

have a look at the other shooting attacks available to the rune priest. they either simply have a normal shooting profile, or say the words "target unit" somewhere.

now have a look at jaws. no shooting profile. no mention of a target unit (or target model or target anything). you're taking the sentence about the affected models out of context. it describes the affects that the power has on models that incidentally are touched by the line (AFTER the 24" line is established, ie targeted). nothing more.

jaws just mentions the 24" line. that's the "target" right there. the 24" line.
 

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The ORIGINAL Sniper Puss
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Ref "needing targets": would it also not be likely that the RP would be positioned so as to strike as many models as possible within that 24" range along the straight line? The power's rules give the player carte blanche as to where he aims the 24" line, and naturally he will want to make the power as productive as possible. Hence are those models which fall under the line not his target(s)? Over-simplified viewpoint perhaps, but let's put it this way: the RP player is not just going to throw the line down haphazardly and not hit anything.

As far as needing LOS: if the line goes through terrain - any terrain, since the type is not specified (see P.88 BRB, para 2 under "How much terrain?" for clarifications on terrain affecting LOS) - there is no problem with LOS since the power may pass through unaffected by the terrain.

E.
 

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The ORIGINAL Sniper Puss
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JOTWW only may pass through terrain, not vehicles. A transport is not terrain, as per the descriptions for terrain given in the BRB. A vehicle may *become* terrain if it suffers a "destroyed - wrecked" result. In that case then yes, the power (IMHO) could pass through it as it is now classed as terrain and JOTWW may pass through terrain. However, the models being transported would already have been forced to disembark and could therefore be targetted anyway.

E.
 

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its not down to what you think but what it says
Unless it persifically says that it is didn't from normal ones, it is not.
Its is very clear, otherwise people could say they dont have to target units with other weapons cos it dont say you have too. Link it back to the Rule book and you follow the noob instructions of how to play the game.
All weapons psyhic or not need targets so unless it clearly says it doesn't then it does.
 

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I would imagine that the less-than-precise wording may come about because they expect people to know how this kind of attack works. To me it seems like it's worded in a way to make it work the same way as an Eldar Vibrocannon (and I feel like that's not the only thing that's ever existed that attacks this way, but can't bring another to mind atm). The vibrocannon, even though it's a gun, simply does exactly what it says...draws a line of xx length. It doesn't fire like a regular weapon because it's not a regular weapon. Regular weapons have a range, type, strength, AP, and possibly other rules. The Vibrocannon does something different, simply drawing a line. The FAQ, to the best of my recollection, states that it doesn't require LOS and can even hit units in combat if the line clips them (including your own!). It certainly doesn't behave like a normal gun, because it has its own rules. I would assume that JOTWW is the same way...sure, it's a psychic shooting attack, because that's what it's classified as. Just like the Vibrocannon is Artillery. But that doesn't mean it fires like shooting a bolter. I'm firmly in camp #2, as that basically describes the working of another weapon that is worded in a similar manner.

As far as firing from a transport, unless I'm mistaken the transport still must have a Fire Point to fire a psychic shooting power out, even if there is no LOS required. After all, the rules for shooting out of vehicles say you can't shoot out unless there's a Fire Point. So it's not a matter of whether you can draw LOS or not, you simply can't fire out of a vehicle with no Fire Point.

My 2 cents, anyway. The psychic shooting with no LOS from a vehicle is definitely covered in the INAT FAQ, but I'm fairly sure that's just a clarification of what you could arrive at simply by applying exactly what the Fire Point rules say.
 

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The Allmighty Chaos Boots
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Ive stared at that rule ever since I bought the codex. The way I understand the RAW there is no reason what-so-ever not to max out on units capable of casting that spell.

I'm firmly in camp 2. And I would not play vs any army fielding this spell.
 

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Take a look at the rune priest spell Thunderclap

you place a template on the runepriest. that is the affected area.

then, if any models are in the affected area, they take the effects. even if only one enemy model was under the template, and lets say that enemy was not in LOS of the rune priest

the spell still goes ahead. you can't say the this "enemy target" is not in LOS, so the power can't be used.

note here that this psychic power makes no mention of thge word "target", but is still classified as a psychic shooting attack

the affected area of the spell is determined. AND THEN, SEPARATELY, whichever models happen to be in this area take the effects of the spell


now lets take a look at the rune priest spell Jaws

you draw a 24" line from the rune priest. ok simple.

AND THEN, SEPARATELY, whichever models happen to be on this line take the effects of the spell


To conclude,
you determine the affected area of the power, exactly as described in the CODEX. no more, no less.
and then, you determine what happens to those in the affected area. no more, no less.

Determining the affected area of the spell, and then determining what happens to any models that happen to be within the affected area (including friendly models) are two separate things.

To those who say that it doesn't specify, and so you have to make the assumption of using the the rules for a shooting profile -- It DOES specify. It says draw a line 24" from the rune priest. That right there describes how to use the spell. Doing what the book says, no more no less, that's RAW. Making assumptions, is not RAW.
 

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Hive Fleet Pandora
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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
I would imagine that the less-than-precise wording may come about because they expect people to know how this kind of attack works. To me it seems like it's worded in a way to make it work the same way as an Eldar Vibrocannon (and I feel like that's not the only thing that's ever existed that attacks this way, but can't bring another to mind atm). The vibrocannon, even though it's a gun, simply does exactly what it says...draws a line of xx length. It doesn't fire like a regular weapon because it's not a regular weapon. Regular weapons have a range, type, strength, AP, and possibly other rules. The Vibrocannon does something different, simply drawing a line. The FAQ, to the best of my recollection, states that it doesn't require LOS and can even hit units in combat if the line clips them (including your own!). It certainly doesn't behave like a normal gun, because it has its own rules. I would assume that JOTWW is the same way...sure, it's a psychic shooting attack, because that's what it's classified as. Just like the Vibrocannon is Artillery. But that doesn't mean it fires like shooting a bolter. I'm firmly in camp #2, as that basically describes the working of another weapon that is worded in a similar manner.
An excellent example - the vibrocannon. +Rep. I was trying to think of a weapon/psychic power analogous to Jaws. This one would probably be most similar to how it works. The thing is, the vibrocannon was FAQ'd so that it doesn't require LOS. Jaws hasn't. However, this gives a glimpse of RAI as to how Jaws should work.


Take a look at the rune priest spell Thunderclap

you place a template on the runepriest. that is the affected area.

then, if any models are in the affected area, they take the effects. even if only one enemy model was under the template, and lets say that enemy was not in LOS of the rune priest

the spell still goes ahead. you can't say the this "enemy target" is not in LOS, so the power can't be used.

note here that this psychic power makes no mention of thge word "target", but is still classified as a psychic shooting attack

the affected area of the spell is determined. AND THEN, SEPARATELY, whichever models happen to be in this area take the effects of the spell

So it's describing an area of effect. Big deal. Ordnance weapons have an area of effect also. So do temp weapons. Any enemy model touched by my temp marker gets hit. It doesn't exclude you from having to pick a target in the first place.


now lets take a look at the rune priest spell Jaws

you draw a 24" line from the rune priest. ok simple.

AND THEN, SEPARATELY, whichever models happen to be on this line take the effects of the spell


To conclude,
you determine the affected area of the power, exactly as described in the CODEX. no more, no less.
and then, you determine what happens to those in the affected area. no more, no less.
Exactly, the "draw the line" explains the area of effect of the power. Anyone caught in its "area of effect" is subject to its consequences. It answers the "how" but not the "who".

Here's how it should work. You use the power on unit (model) A. Behind unit A is impassable terrain and unit B. The power hits A and continues to go through terrain to hit unit B as well. However, you cannot use the power specifically on unit B itself because you can't see him behind the terrain, even though the power can go through the terrain (unless the RP has X-ray vision and can see exactly where the target is behind the hill so as to open up the ground underneath it).



Determining the affected area of the spell, and then determining what happens to any models that happen to be within the affected area (including friendly models) are two separate things.

To those who say that it doesn't specify, and so you have to make the assumption of using the the rules for a shooting profile -- It DOES specify. It says draw a line 24" from the rune priest. That right there describes how to use the spell. Doing what the book says, no more no less, that's RAW. Making assumptions, is not RAW.

It describes how to use the power and that's all it does. It's worded badly. The only assumption being made here is when you draw the line, you don't need a target. And that is not RAW. That is contrary to what a shooting attack does.
 

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yes 24" but surely you must target a single enemy and the line must go to/through him so if its 12" away it goes 12" to him from RP and then 12" out the other side?

and then any unit that falls under this line also gets attacked

Untill they bring out a FAQ for it you must play by the worded rules and unless it clearly states you dont need to target someone (like the vibrocannon apparently does in the FAQ) then you must target an enemy
 

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So it's describing an area of effect. Big deal. Ordnance weapons have an area of effect also. So do temp weapons. Any enemy model touched by my temp marker gets hit. It doesn't exclude you from having to pick a target in the first place.
exactly. it's describing an area of effect. ordnance weapons have an area of effect, and also have normal shooting, in which a target model is under the center hole.

where in thunderclap does it say anything a bout having an enemy target? your reply to this has not actually addressed the point i made a bout thunderclap: that you don't singly pick an enemy unit to target to shoot at.

the template in fact is put on the rune priest himself. do enemy models that are not in LOS but fall under the template get affected? yes. can this power be used if NO enemies are in LOS? yes. because you did not have to singly pick one out in the first place.

thunderclap is also a psychic shooting attack, but you clearly do not nominate a target unit. the difference with an ordnance weapon is that you do in fact nominate a target you're shooting at when its an ordnance weapon.

if you were thinking of making the argument that because the rune priest is putting the blast template on himself (similar to the daemonhunter Holocaust), he's therefore using himself is a point of reference (ie "target"),
That would then validate the argument that in Jaws, the points of reference (ie "targets") are the Rune Priest himself, and the point 24" away.


Exactly, the "draw the line" explains the area of effect of the power. Anyone caught in its "area of effect" is subject to its consequences. It answers the "how" but not the "who".

Here's how it should work. You use the power on unit (model) A. Behind unit A is impassable terrain and unit B. The power hits A and continues to go through terrain to hit unit B as well. However, you cannot use the power specifically on unit B itself because you can't see him behind the terrain, even though the power can go through the terrain (unless the RP has X-ray vision and can see exactly where the target is behind the hill so as to open up the ground underneath it).
nope. just like thunderclap, enemy units have no bearing on the casting of the spell itself. the spell has a bearing on what happens to enemy units.

It describes how to use the power and that's all it does.
exactly. do as the codex says, and you're following RAW

It's worded badly. The only assumption being made here is when you draw the line, you don't need a target. And that is not RAW. That is contrary to what a shooting attack does.
no assumptions are made. the codes describes how it's used. just do exactly that: draw a line starting from the rune priest, ending 24" away.
nothing else is implicated that would complicate a very simple rule. it's not worded badly, it's worded very clearly. so for the sake of this argument, let's look at the words in the codex:

"As a psychic shooting attack, the Rune Priest may trace a straight line along the board, starting from the Rune Priest and ending 24" away. This line may pass through terrain."

take note of the period after "terrain." here is the first part of the rule on the power. it describes how the power determines its area of effect. that's it. just like thunderclap, where the point of reference is the rune priest himself, not any enemies that would be affected, in jaws the points of reference regarding the power are again the rune priest himself, and for this power a point 24" inches away - not any enemies that would be affected.

"Monstrous creatures, beasts, cavalry, bikes and infantry models that are touched by this line must take an Initiative test (see Characteristic Tests in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook). If the model fails the test, it is removed from play."

so, after the 24" line is determined, using only the Rune Priest and the 24" point away as points of reference the rest of the effects come into play. the points of reference are never an enemy "target," because there are none - just like thunderclap, just like holocaust.

the rule is very clearly worded. just follow what the rule says - draw your line, NOT shoot an enemy with your line

yes 24" but surely you must target a single enemy and the line must go to/through him so if its 12" away it goes 12" to him from RP and then 12" out the other side?
nope. no single enemy targeted. i'll refer you to what i said about thunderclap and holocaust above about no single enemy being targeted

and then any unit that falls under this line also gets attacked
yes.
 
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