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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Here is the link to the original thread that has incited the discussion.

Pretty much it is as follows:

Jaws of the World Wolf description

"As a psychic shooting attack, the Rune Priest may trace straight line along the board, starting from the Rune Priest and ending 24" away. This line may pass through terrain. Monstrous creatures, beasts, cavalry, bikes, and infantry models touched by this line must take an initiative test..."(the rest of the description has nothing to do with the debate)

The following is taken from the FAQ word for word.

Q. Does Jaws of the World Wolf require line of
sight? Does it ignore terrain that blocks line of
sight (i.e., impassible terrain)?

A. As a psychic shooting attack, Jaws of the World
Wolf requires line of sight. The Rune Priest must
have line of sight to the first model that the
power affects – in effect he is treated as the target
model; the power just happens to hit everybody
else on its way through!

The debate is whether or not you are allowed to target a model locked in an assault which would mean that the line would be going through that specific model first thus making it the target model even though you are really "targeting" another more powerful model that will be hit later in succession by this line.

Note: That all models that are hit by this line even if they are in an assault is totally legal. The debate is whether or not you can specifically or indirectly target a model in an assault in which it will be the FIRST model the line goes through

I believe that about sums it up.
 

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3 Getrudes
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The debate is whether or not you are allowed to target a model locked in an assault
That's not it at all, because you don't nominate a target for Jaws in the same way as you would do for a normal shooting attack; what happens is you trace a straight line along the board, and any models touched by the line are affected by the power. A condition of the power working is that the Rune Priest using it must have LoS to the first model that will be affected by the power, essentially making the first model that the power will affect the "target" of the power.

Normally you can't nominate friendly squads or squads locked in combat as 'targets' when making a shooting attack. The thing is, you don't nominate a target when using JotWW; you trace a line along the board and check Line of Sight to the first model that the power will affect who becomes, in effect, the 'target' of the power (see the SW FAQ). If you can do that, you're golden. If you can't, the power doesn't work.

EDIT: For clarity, a little flowchart to demonstrate how JotWW is used for people who don't want to sift through the other thread:



It's your shooting phase.
\/
Declare you're going to use JotWW.
\/
Make a sucessful psychic test.
\/
[Lifted straight from the Codex:] As a psychic shooting attack, the Rune Priest may trace a straight line along the board, starting at the Rune Priest and ending 24" away.
So that's what you do, you trace a line. As a psychic shooting attack, which uses up your allotment of 'one shooting attack per shooting phase'. The line automatically hits models it touches according to the SW Codex.
[Addendum from the Space Wolf FAQ:] The Rune Priest must have line of sight to the first model that the power will affect - in effect, this model is treated as the "target".
If the RP has LoS to the first model that the power will affect, you're good. He is, in effect, the target. All other considerations are irrelevant; you can't nominate your own models or models locked in CC as targets of shooting attacks, but you're not nominating a target here so that's fine. You're tracing a straight line along the board. Rules are subverted. FAQ>Codex>BRB.
\/
Power goes off, results are worked out according to the SW Codex.
 

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My interpretation would hinge off the Q&A wording:

A. As a psychic shooting attack, Jaws of the World
Wolf requires line of sight. The Rune Priest must
have line of sight to the first model that the
power affects – in effect he is treated as the target
model
; the power just happens to hit everybody
else on its way through!

So the first model is in effect the target model of a shooting attack. Because the SW codex and the FAQ nowhere state an exemption that the target model of the power can be locked in assault then this requirement from shooting attacks is still in effect just like any other.

That's how I see it anyway.
 

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Hive Fleet Pandora
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This is going to be one of those chicken-or-the-egg debates. The people on one side of the argument is not going to persuade/dissuade the people on the other side.


With that said, consider this flow:

Marine fires his boltgun indiscriminately forwards.
V
He rolls to hit and does.
V
Boltgun hits one of his own models locked in cc.


Now why is the above illegal whereas doing the same with Jaws isn't? Why is it the marine is afraid of firing into combat and hitting his own man, and the Rune Priest isn't? Even Logan or Ragnar wouldn't dare fire into combat. Heck, even orks and nids who would think nothing of sacrificing one of their own dare not fire into combat.

While you maintain JotWW does not need a target - that it is an indiscriminate line and he just points it - I disagree. Jaws has a target. It is a psychic shooting attack and must follow all the rules for shooting attacks unless explicitly excepted in its description. The "draw a line" explains how it is used to effect other models. There is nothing in there saying that it does not need a target. What you're thinking is "drawing the line" implies that there doesn't need to be a target. Sorry, I just don't see it that way any more than firing a boltgun doesn't need a target.

It does not even need a FAQ IMO but it did just for clarification purposes. Even in the FAQ, it very clearly states that the target is the very 1st model it hits. It doesn't matter who else is hit afterwards, but the very 1st model needs to be a valid model, meaning it can't be your own model or one that is in combat.
 

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I would have to agree with Darguth and jy2 on this one. The fact that they say "in effect he is treated as the target model" means that it is the target model, not that he is kind of a target model.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
My interpretation would hinge off the Q&A wording:

A. As a psychic shooting attack, Jaws of the World
Wolf requires line of sight. The Rune Priest must
have line of sight to the first model that the
power affects – in effect he is treated as the target
model
; the power just happens to hit everybody
else on its way through!

So the first model is in effect the target model of a shooting attack. Because the SW codex and the FAQ nowhere state an exemption that the target model of the power can be locked in assault then this requirement from shooting attacks is still in effect just like any other.

That's how I see it anyway.
That's how I've interpreted it as well. Just makes more sense in regards to the rules. That statement that Darguth bolded wouldn't even be necessary to state in the FAQ if the other side of the argument was true.

That's my opinion, anyways
 

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3 Getrudes
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You see it wrong, then.

'He is, in affect, treated as the target' is not the same as 'He is the target', or 'He becomes the target'. JotWW doesn't have a target. It has a line, 24" long, traced along the board from the Rune Priest.

If you fire a Boltgun, unless your model has a rule that says he can fire it indiscriminately forwards... he can't fire it indiscriminately forwards. He has to nominate a target.

When you use JotWW you don't nominate a target. You draw a line, and the first model along that line that will be affected by the power is treated as the target. He isn't the target. JotWW doesn't have one, no matter how you might like to lawyer one in there. It has a line, a single model that you require line of sight to, and an effect. That's it.
 

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"In effect" means because of some event the next part becomes true. The next part being he is treated as the target, meaning, because you have drawn a line and he is the first one hit he should be treated as the target of the spell. Therefore you must follow all of the rules as if he is the target. If does not have to specifically state that you must declare a target for there to be a target.

I think you are focusing too much on how the spell will cause its damage instead of how the spell is fired. Think of the line as a new type of template.
 

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You see it wrong, then.

'He is, in affect, treated as the target' is not the same as 'He is the target', or 'He becomes the target'. JotWW doesn't have a target. It has a line, 24" long, traced along the board from the Rune Priest.

If you fire a Boltgun, unless your model has a rule that says he can fire it indiscriminately forwards... he can't fire it indiscriminately forwards. He has to nominate a target.

When you use JotWW you don't nominate a target. You draw a line, and the first model along that line that will be affected by the power is treated as the target. He isn't the target. JotWW doesn't have one, no matter how you might like to lawyer one in there. It has a line, a single model that you require line of sight to, and an effect. That's it.
You're right, he may not be a target per se but he is treated as a target. Now, this leaves it to the difference between being an explicitly stated target or being treated as a target.

In my opinion (and I don't see how it can be seen too differently) the difference here is the title. Although the first model hit by Jaws isn't the target he is treated as one and so all targetting rules should be followed when targeting him.

This is just my opinion, so let's hear yours. How can you be treated as a target without following the rules of being targeted?
 

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3 Getrudes
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"In effect" means because of some event the next part becomes true. The next part being he is treated as the target, meaning, because you have drawn a line and he is the first one hit he should be treated as the target of the spell.
With you.

Therefore you must follow all of the rules as if he is the target.
That's fine; if I have line of sight to him, the shooting attack works. That's the only rule that interacts with the model when he becomes the 'target'.

The other stuff, the stuff that stipulates what is and is not a valid target to be nominated for a shooting attack; that interacts with target nomination. You don't do that when using JotWW.

Now you have to show me where it says I can't trace my JotWW line in any direction I please when I'm using the power, because unless you can do that then the entire argument against falls on it's arse. When you're trying to do this, don't forget; I'm not nominating a target for the power to work against. I'm tracing a line along the board.

In before 'oh but while you're tracing the line you will know that the first model it comes into contact with will be treated as the target so you ARE designating a target!". Nope; I'm still just tracing a line along the board.

I think you are focusing too much on how the spell will cause its damage instead of how the spell is fired. Think of the line as a new type of template.
I have; I've pulled that lever in my head a million times, and each time I do the reels keep telling me it's not a Template. In absolutely no way is JotWW's line anything like a Template; mostly because when I'm using a Template, I have to tell you what I'm using it against BEFORE I place the Template. Don't need to do that with JotWW. Just trace a line.

So basically, instead of trying to compare and contrast it against existing examples of attacks, what I did was I looked at the thing on it's own merits. Which you have to do with JotWW because there is absolutely nothing else that even comes close to being comparable to it, as far as I'm aware. The ONLY things in 40k that are anything remotely like JotWW are Tank Shock and Ramming, and even they don't stack up because there, you're specifically told that you can't move the vehicle through friendly models or models locked in CC. No such luck with JotWW.

So yeah, I've been going at this RaW-style for a while now so I suppose I might as well share my opinion on it. Do I like it? Not at all. Models locked in close combat are subject to compulsory movement and so it isn't really fair for this to be able to work against them; it'd be pretty easy for someone to make a long line out of your Orks and then just plough JotWW through the middle of them. Then again I don't like Sweeping Advance or vehicle cover saves either. Doesn't mean they don't work.
 

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Son of LO
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From the wording of the rule, JotWW requires no target: you simply draw a line starting from the Rune Priest and ending 24'' away.

The faq seems to refer to LOS issues, not targeting issues. I wouldn't treat it as affecting anything other than what LOS is required. In this case, the Rune Priest requires LOS to the first model it hits. It shouldn't change the functioning of the power (specifically, its targeting restrictions) in any ways other than is stated.
 

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Jaws is a psychic shooting attack, in which case is treated as though firing an assault weapon in the shooting phase, in which case you would need to nominate a target (just like firing any other assault weapon in the shooting phase), which just happens to be the first model within LoS of the Rune Priest in the direction he wants to fire his 24" line. This would mean he would not be able to shoot towards a CC unless there is a model within LoS of the Rune Priest that is closer than any model in that CC because you cannot fire a ranged weapon into a CC (unless it scatters into it, which this power does not do).

No matter how directly or indirectly the power actually hits models, it still needs to be fired as though firing a ranged weapon and therefore needs to have a target nominated as the starting point. The Rune Priest isn't simply closing his eyes, extending his arm, pointing and spinning and then wherever he dicides to stop spinning is the direction it's being fired (that would be very stupid from a tactical perspective), he is carefully choosing which direction to fire his power, in which case he would be very careful not to shoot at his teammates when they are engaged in CC.

All this being said, like Jy2 had stated, no one is going to back down from their side of the argument, so just use it as you would think it would be used and once a GW official tells you you are using it wrong (or your opponent is adament that you are using it incorrectly) then use it the other way.
 

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I don't have to nominate a target when using Jaws of the World Wolf. I just draw a line. Therefore your assertion that it's like shooting an Assault weapon is incorrect.

Also, who says it's an Assault weapon? Where are you getting that from?

If we're going to start getting into fluff and supposition and intent... Of course the RP isn't just randomly pointing his finger and firing out a beam of energy. The idea is he's opening a chasm in the ground into which things will fall. The Initiative test represents affected models leaping out of the way, or failing to do so as the case may be.

I think that's why it's so indiscriminate too, because gaping chasms don't come with heat-seekers or laser-guidance systems. They just open up, and things fall down. I think, if you had the power to do that, you likely would be quite careful not to have it swallow your team-mates, but you'd probably also realise that when it comes to opening a gaping chasm in the floor you can only be so careful. Maybe, like... yell, or something.


All of that is irrelevant to the rules though. You don't nominate a target, so the usual restrictions on target nomination do not apply. Like ze_poodle says, it's all to do with LoS.
 

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The ORIGINAL Sniper Puss
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I don't have to nominate a target when using Jaws of the World Wolf. I just draw a line. Therefore your assertion that it's like shooting an Assault weapon is incorrect.

Also, who says it's an Assault weapon? Where are you getting that from?
It's in the rulebook on P.50 under "Psychic Shooting Attacks", where it states that
using a Psychic shooting attack counts as firing a ranged weapon (an assault weapon, unless specified otherwise)
I also agree that the only thing the RP requires is to be able to see the model which is going to be hit first by the JOTWW line. That's what the FAQ says/implies.

E.
 

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Considering that the Jaws of the World Wolf is considered a psychic shooting power, and considering that it requires LOS and considering the first model hit is considered the target it seems inconceivable to me that at this point it could suddenly be argued that the targeting restrictions don't apply and in fact models in hand to hand can be targeted.

Apart from being highly semantic, it is also against the spirit of the rules so is breaking RAW anyway by not abiding by the most important rule.....
 

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The FAQ states that you must have LoS to the closest model, which in effect makes that model the target. I'm not understanding why you do not believe this is targetting, since the FAQ says that is, in effect, what you are doing when using that model for LoS purposes.
 

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Son of LO
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Considering that the Jaws of the World Wolf is considered a psychic shooting power, and considering that it requires LOS and considering the first model hit is considered the target it seems inconceivable to me that at this point it could suddenly be argued that the targeting restrictions don't apply and in fact models in hand to hand can be targeted.
Do you roll to hit?

This is an honest question.
 

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How to fire Wind of Chaos:
Step 1) Nominate your DP/ Sorceror as the shooter.
Step 2) Make a successful psychic test.
Step 3) Nominate the target.
Step 4) Place the Template so that it covers as many models in the enemy unit as possible without touching any friendly models.
Step 5) Calculate hits and roll to wound/ penetrate.
Step 6) Roll to save if applicable; then either apply results or roll for damage and apply results if it's a vehicle.

How to fire Jaws of the World Wolf:
Step 1) Nominate your Rune Priest as the shooter.
Step 2) Make a successful psychic test.
Step 3) Trace a straight line along the board starting at the RP and ending 24" away.
Step 4) Check LoS to the first model along this line that the power will affect.
Step 5) If your RP has LoS to this model, all Monstrous Creatures, Beasts, Cavalry, Infantry and Bikes models that are touched by the line must make a successful Initiative check or be instantly and permanently removed from the game.


Do you see now why it's different?

I can't fire Wind of Chaos at or through one of my own units because it is a Template attack, and Template attacks aren't allowed to touch friendly models. Nor can I nominate a locked unit as it's target because it's a shooting attack that requires a nominated target, and you're not allowed to nominate locked units as targets.

I can trace my JotWW line so that it hits one of my own models, or a unit locked in combat, because I am not nominating a target. I'm not required to. RTFM; page 37, Space Wolves Codex. All I need is a successful psychic test and the ability to trace a striaght line 24" along the board. Then the FAQ came out and told me I needed to have LoS to the first model that the power will affect, so as long as I pass my test, trace the line, and have LoS to the first model the power will affect, I'm good to go.

I've already said I think this is stupid. I've already said why. As an addendum to that, being able to check LoS to your own models allows you to use a member of the Rune Priest's squad as the effective 'target', which means he can check LoS to a model that is standing next to him and the power will work, thus allowing you to snipe at enemy models through your Rhino.

What JotWW is, is an example of designers writing 'cool' rules without regard to game mechanics, not playtesting them, and then releasing the book with them in there for the world to argue about. Remember the MoO? Khan's 'Chapter Tactics'? Doom of Malantai's death aura? GW have pedigree when it comes to doing this, except where JotWW is concerned the storm was made perfect by an extremely equivocal FAQ 'clarification'.


What they need to do now is either confirm once and for all that the first model that the power will affect is actually the target of the power, and thus is covered by the usual restrictions on target nomination, or if he isn't. Until they do that the RaW remains what it is.

EDIT: It is worth noting at this point that requiring you to have LoS to the first model that the power will AFFECT is a pretty substantial nerf in it's own right to JotWW. Previously you required LoS to the first model along the line, so you could actually use it to snipe through your Rhino without risking one of your own models.
 
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