Jetbikes or Hellions

1051 Views 19 Replies 10 Participants Last post by Drachon Drew, Feb 11, 2006

Orc "Huge" Boss

Discussion Starter · Feb 3, 2006

Which would be the better choice, Jetbikes or Hellions? I'm leaning toward the Hellions because of the hit and run rule and because the models look pretty cool. But I would like to hear some opinions on how these units have worked for people.

Thanks in advance.

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Neferata

· #2 · Feb 3, 2006

I prefere bikes myself. They may cost a little more, but you get a better armor save, higher strength and toughness (all the time, not just on the charge), more mobility, and slightly better firepower.

Now, if you were to embed an archon in the hellion squad, then that's not a bad choice either. Only downside is that your archon would not gain the hit and run rule, and would not be able to assault 12" with drugs

Bottom line though: while hellions aren't bad, and I feel they are often overlooked, I'd still rather go with bikes.

Just my thoughts.

WraithGuardian

· #3 · Feb 3, 2006

I can see the origin of the question, a few weeks ago I asked the same one.

Anyway, hellion skyboard does have its advantages. It gives +1 armor save and 5+ invulnerable save, which is not too bad, BUT a character on it cant use hit and run which pretty much takes away the point of the skyboard, but at least you keep the deerpstrike rule. Also, hellion lord is good only for solo hunting cause usually he will be so fast that the rest of your army wil have trouble catching up to him, unless of course you take a retinue hellion squad. Hellions overall arent bad, however they are a bit expensive and for just a few points more you can get a jetbike which in my opinion is a lot better. My opinion, you should have hellions but you must know when to use em and against what in order to achieve max effect.

Jetbikes are pretty nice, a lord on bike benefits from better save, toughness and strength. Also a bike is FAST, skim 12" and fire or turbo boost 24" without any actions. This is very good for harasing the enemy heavy infantry (Immortals, terminators) especially if you give lord punisher. Bike is very nice compared to hellion, but its up to you to decide. Both ways include your lord pretty much going solo hunting, if thats what you want I would suggest a bike

(((I usually dont like having my archon being lonely so I gave him incubi and hamoculi)))

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karantalsis

· #4 · Feb 3, 2006 (Edited)

WraithGuardian said:
I can see the origin of the question, a few weeks ago I asked the same one.

Anyway, hellion skyboard does have its advantages. It gives +1 armor save and 5+ invulnerable save, which is not too bad,

The hellion skyboard does not improve your armour save, although it does supply a 5++ jink, which is nice.

WraithGuardian said:
BUT a character on it cant use hit and run which pretty much takes away the point of the skyboard, but at least you keep the deerpstrike rule. Also, hellion lord is good only for solo hunting cause usually he will be so fast that the rest of your army wil have trouble catching up to him, unless of course you take a retinue hellion squad.

I actually tend to find him slower than a raider or web based force because he gets left behind due to a limited charge and no fleet of foot, deepstrike is not really beneficial as you simply become the prime shooting target.

WraithGuardian said:
Hellions overall arent bad, however they are a bit expensive and for just a few points more you can get a jetbike which in my opinion is a lot better. My opinion, you should have hellions but you must know when to use em and against what in order to achieve max effect.

Hellions are an assault unit with rapid fire weapons. This is terrible as they cannot fire and assualt in the same turn,t hey have only a 5++ save and are incapable of handling much fire for this reason, in addition they cannot turbo boost or fleet, making them slower than a cheaper, more effective raider based warrior squad. Their hit and run rule is only good if you can survive 2 rounds of combat, else you become a shooting target and hellions don't have the combination of hitting power and toughness to do stay two rounds or handle the shooting, especially as they cannot fire before a charge.

WraithGuardian said:
Jetbikes are pretty nice, a lord on bike benefits from better save, toughness and strength.

A lord on a bike does not get a better save, the toughness is a slight benefit, but IMO not worth 35 points, in addition the +1 strength can be gained from a punisher which also negates the need to pay more for a power weapon.

WraithGuardian said:
Also a bike is FAST, skim 12" and fire or turbo boost 24" without any actions. This is very good for harasing the enemy heavy infantry (Immortals, terminators) especially if you give lord punisher. Bike is very nice compared to hellion, but its up to you to decide. Both ways include your lord pretty much going solo hunting, if thats what you want I would suggest a bike

A bike is actually slower than a solo archon on a raider (piggy backing with a raider/witch squad) or coming from a portal on foot, in addition the turbo boost simply turns you into a fire magnet with only a 2++/5++ save to protect you, not enough against an entire armies shooting, nothing is. If you boost behind cover, you may as well have done so with a raider or portal based lord. A lord on a bike can't use a punisher as it is a two handed weapon.

To answer the original question Jetbikes are by far the betyter fast attack option as a succubus led group of 4-6 jetbikes with 2 blasters and power weapon+ TH on the succubus are a good combat force and a 3-4 man squad with 2 blasters is a great tank hunter. Personally I would have to say the bikes are better by far, although I would not give one to an IC I would most definetly advocate taking a unit in your army if you have the points spare or if you just like them, they are effective.

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Ostsol

· #5 · Feb 3, 2006

karantalsis said:
The hellion skyboard does not improve your armour save, although it does supply a 5++ jink, which is nice.

*re-reads the codex entry* Actually, it does provide a bonus to the model's normal armour save.

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WraithGuardian

· #6 · Feb 3, 2006

Actually bike archon does get a +3 save which in my opinion is better then the 5+ of the archon, hellion skyboard DOES give +1 to armor save, hellions might be slower but they DO ignore difficult and impasable terain which makes up for their lack of movement, and this is overlooked by many people. Jetbike lords CANT use a punisher since its a two handed weapon. Read the codex, it says you can only arm lord with 1-handed weapon since the other one is used for piloting.(Punisher is 2-handed, no other weapons can be used)

Slathe

· #7 · Feb 3, 2006

WraithGuardian said:
Actually bike archon does get a +3 save which in my opinion is better then the 5+ of the archon, hellion skyboard DOES give +1 to armor save, hellions might be slower but they DO ignore difficult and impasable terain which makes up for their lack of movement, and this is overlooked by many people. Jetbike lords CANT use a punisher since its a two handed weapon. Read the codex, it says you can only arm lord with 1-handed weapon since the other one is used for piloting.(Punisher is 2-handed, no other weapons can be used)

The hellion board does give the +1 to armor save and the 5++ jink save. The codex says nothing about a save bonus for an archon on a bike, where are people getting that figure from?

-Slathe

Ostsol

· #8 · Feb 3, 2006

Just because Reavers have a better save than Wyches does not mean that an Archon on a bike gets a better save than an Archon otherwise has. Reavers are not Wyches on bikes, except in fluff. In terms of the rules, Reavers are Reavers and Wyches are Wyches. They have no relation to each other other than some coincidental similarities in stats, abilities, and fluff -- but fluff has no bearing on the rules.

Neferata

· #9 · Feb 3, 2006

If I remember correctly, reavers are in fact a subsect of the wych cult (I may be wrong on this, my DE codex is 200+ miles away). Despite this though, the reavers are a completely difference unit entry, and apparantly the trooper that rides the reaver just has better personal armor. Your armor on a bike is still the same as your armor on the ground.

karantalsis

· #10 · Feb 4, 2006

Thanks for cathcing my mistake, I misread the entry, still don't think its worth it for the speed decrease, any more than the extra toughness is for the bike archon.

Slathe

· #11 · Feb 4, 2006

Do you lose speed w/ the hellion board as well, in the same way you do w/ a bike, or can you still fleet of foot w/ it (i know in the codex it says "hellions" cannot fleet of foot, but it doesn't say anything about characters on hellion skyboards, even though it does say reaver jetbikes, not Reavers, are what cannot fleet of foot in the bike example)

-Slathe

Ostsol

· #12 · Feb 4, 2006

The only official text stating that a character on a Skyboard cannot fleet or assault 12" is on the official forums.

CLICK ME!!

Lord Ramon

· #13 · Feb 4, 2006

Reaver thang!

From reading various posts on Reavers, it seems that many DE commanders donâ€™t like them much. I think they are a viable choice for a number of reasons:

1). Their stat line is very close to a standard Marineâ€™s, with much better Initiative and a slightly worse Save, i.e. reasonably rugged, with above average survivability (especially in a DE army).
2). Reavers move 12â€? and are not slowed by Difficult terrain.
3). Reavers can fire once and still Assault.
4). Turbo Boost invulnerable save.
5). Combat Drugs give a 50% chance of a stat increase, with 2 other good rolls â€“ i.e. strike first (great vs enemies in cover) and re-roll misses.

A standard Space Marine is 15pts, canâ€™t move and shoot further than 12â€? away, canâ€™t shoot and Assault, and is slowed by terrain. Reavers are 25pts, which is the same cost as 1.6 Marines. I believe that the above reasons alone justify choosing them.

Tactically as support for squads in Raiders, or as a fast flanking unit, I thin they can be extremely useful, and with 2 Blasters, are a thorn to your enemyâ€™s high armour or toughness stuff.

Lord Ramon

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WraithGuardian

· #14 · Feb 4, 2006

I swear I was really sure that reaver archon gets a better save but I cant recall where I have seen it? Maybe I am wrong afterall. Stil it makes no sense that a model on foot has same armor as the same one riding a bike, if thats the truth then it really sucks

Slathe

· #15 · Feb 5, 2006

On the subject of boards, it's implied in the faq (where it says you cannot mount a unit w/ an IC on a board in a transport), but where in the rules does it say you cannot mount a character in a transport if they have a board.

-Slathe

Ostsol

· #16 · Feb 5, 2006

I vote for common sense.

Plague_00

· #17 · Feb 5, 2006

I swear I was really sure that reaver archon gets a better save but I cant recall where I have seen it? Maybe I am wrong afterall. Stil it makes no sense that a model on foot has same armor as the same one riding a bike, if thats the truth then it really sucks

true it does however if ya buy a bike although ur save is unafected ya do get a 12inch move the bike wepon and + 1 attack and toughness so in the end it's okay.

Ostsol

· #18 · Feb 5, 2006

Plague_00 said:
true it does however if ya buy a bike although ur save is unafected ya do get a 12inch move the bike wepon and + 1 attack and toughness so in the end it's okay.

Where does the bike weapon and +1 Attack come from? The bike entry in the armoury makes no mention of either.

MobiusPrime

· #19 · Feb 10, 2006

Reaver Jetbikes give +1 Toughness (for being bikes) and +1 Strength (for having blades all over them). They also grant the turbo boost special rule.
That's it!
You don't get a better armor save! (I know where this is comming from. Wyches have 6+, Wyches on bikes have 4+; Archon has 5+, hence Archon on bike should have 3+. But this is not Fantasy people!)

I run a unit of 10 Hellions (naked, no upgrades) simply because I love the look of the models.
Alternatively, I'm not sure if Hellions can take special weapons or not (Blasters/Shredders, I think they can).
So you could theoretically use a tiny three man Hellion squad to Deep Strike Blasters behind a tank and blow it up (this would be, what, about 75 points?). But this probably will only work rarely thanks to the randomness of Deep Strike. (Also remember that Hellions are a 0-1 choice, even in Wyche Cults).

It'd be nice though, to pull an 'IG Droptroop' move on a Leman Russ.

Drachon Drew

· #20 · Feb 11, 2006

I prefer using Jetbikes rather than hellions. Their tubo boosts have always come in handy and the 4+ inv. save they receive is a blessing. The models also appeal to me more than the Hellion models.

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