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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Ive recently used a nasty trick where i used Kayvaan Shrike to infiltrate Marneus Calgar and 10 assault terminators. My oppenent had a hissy fit and said that i couldnt infiltrate with both Calgar and the Terminators. I was under the impression that once an independant character joins a unit he has become apart of that unit.

Kayvaans Rule says that whatever unit he joins gains the infiltrate ability.

My oppenent said that calgar was a seperate unit and that i cant infiltrate 2 units and i argued it was one unit.

My question is can you have an independant character attached to squad infiltrate with Kayvaan Shrike or can it only be one unit
 

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The answer is that there is no definitive answer. Check this thread for a discussion on the topic. There have been a couple other discussions about it as well; try searching the forums to find them. Until the issue is answered in a FAQ, it's all up to either who can debate their point better, or a dice roll.



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If an independent character without the "infiltrate" special rule joins a unit of infiltrators during deployment, the unit cannot infiltrate.
Shrike gives the unit he is with infiltrate...

Even though the unit gained infiltrate through Shrike, I do not see why Calgar would get it. My reasoning is I cannot find anything about IC's joining just with other IC's. Hence Strike could not give Calgar the ability directly himself, and the above quote specifically addresses IC joining units with infiltrate.
 

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p48


Shrike gives the unit he is with infiltrate...

Even though the unit gained infiltrate through Shrike, I do not see why Calgar would get it. My reasoning is I cannot find anything about IC's joining just with other IC's. Hence Strike could not give Calgar the ability directly himself, and the above quote specifically addresses IC joining units with infiltrate.
If you read the debate in the thread I linked to:

Joining an IC without infiltrate to a unit with infiltrate removes the infiltrate ability, true. However, the unit does not have infiltrate; Shrike gives infiltrate to his entire unit. The debate sparks from the "order" in which the ICs join the unit; if Calgar joins the unit, then Shrike joins the unit (since this is all happening pre-deployment, it really is a moot point what the 'order' is), then Shrike's ability gives Calgar and the rest of the unit the infiltrate ability.

So, in that light, it's not a case of an IC without infiltrate joining a unit with infiltrate; Shrike's rule gives the entire unit, Calgar included, the infiltrate ability.

Read the thread, it's not nearly as clearly cut as you seem to be thinking!



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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I raised the question in my local GW today with one of the staff who is usually pretty good at working with tough rules queries. His musings also included the one about the chicken and egg situation - Chaplain joins first, then he will get Infiltrate because of Shrike's rule etc. Another contention was that these SM Special Characters effectively would supercede everything else purely because of the fact that they are just that: *Special* Characters.

Another point made was that both Shrike and the Chaplain could be joined to the squad before deployment, so everyone is "in at the beginning", so to speak. No 'he joined first' stuff, and Shrike's Infiltrate benefit would therefore be solid for all models including Mr Chaplain.

The main point he made though was that Codex trumps rulebook. The rules about ICs sans Infiltration joining units with Infiltration and what happens is declared in the BRB as a general rule covering all armies' ICs. Shrike's Codex entry which says that he confers Infiltrate on all models in the unit he joins will supercede the BRB's IC rules as "Codex trumps BRB" and Shrike's special rules are found in the Codex and not in the BRB.

I would see this Shrike+Squad+Chaplain unit being able to Infiltrate/Outflank, also be Fearless and be able to re-roll failed to-hit rolls on the turn that the unit charges into CC.

Now that's a lot of abilities in one go, and I'm thinking that there could well be cries of "Uber Powerful", "Powergaming" and "Gorgonzola" if this did occur on the battlefield!
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That above post was made by Eiglepiper.

And the points he made make alot of sense.

Thanks next time somebody yells cheese against me infiltrating calgar or lysander in a squad ill pull this up
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Alot of good points made by Eiglepiper i copied and pasted in the above post

Thanks
 

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Generally speaking.. If my opponent disagrees, I'll comply with the "no" side of an argument, if both sides have equally compelling cases. Out of fairness. The game is meant to be fun, and Calgar can be devastating elsewhere as well.
 
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