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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi all!
I've searched a little bit and haven't really seen this addressed:
Can Kharn's unit be Lash of Submission'ed?
Is there a funky chance that the unit he's with will get moved and not him? Does he confer immunity to his unit? Does he lose the ability? I am playing a very lash happy player later in the week and think that this could be something I could exploit... Or at least not screw up!
Thanks!
 

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Hive Fleet Pandora
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If Kharne is part of the squad, he would get lashed along with it. He cannot leave the squad unless 1) he does so in his own movement phase or 2) anytime his entire unit gets wiped out. Remember, it's not Kharne who is getting lashed, it's his unit. He's just along for the ride.
 

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The other Kind of Fluff
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This question has been addressed by the Adepticon '09:

Q: If Kharn is part of a unit that is hit by Lash of Submission, what happens?

A: Kharn ignores the ability, and since a unit always moves at the speed of the slowest model, his unit does not move. However, if the unit fails its pinning test, Kharn will Go to Ground with them.

[RAW] SW.15N.03
 

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Hive Fleet Pandora
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This question has been addressed by the Adepticon '09:

Q: If Kharn is part of a unit that is hit by Lash of Submission, what happens?

A: Kharn ignores the ability, and since a unit always moves at the speed of the slowest model, his unit does not move. However, if the unit fails its pinning test, Kharn will Go to Ground with them.

[RAW] SW.15N.03
I'd have to disagree with Adepticon here. Lash is not affecting Kharne. It's affecting the unit of which Kharne belongs to. Kharne just has to move with his unit. Other examples I can think of:

If a unit moves, so does the IC.

If a unit assaults, so does the IC.

If a unit is swept, so is the IC.

If a unit falls back, so will the IC.

If a unit goes to ground, so does the IC.

And for a more extreme example:

A hive tyrant with a tyrant guard retinue. Monstrous Creatures cannot go-to-ground but the guards can. If they do so while behind cover, the MC still enjoys the 3+ cover that his retinue gets even though it hasn't gone to ground.
 

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LO's Shadow Captain
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The thing is, Kharn is part of the unit. The power affects the unit, which includes Kharn. You can't pick and choose, you can't target the rest of the unit without targeting Kharn, as he is attached to it as per the Independent Character rules. Since the power is targeting the unit, and Kharn ignores the effects of the power, I'd have to learn more towards Adepticon's way of thinking on that one.



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Vote for Adepticon!

The explanation with the slowest movement makes sense, thats exactly what I thought of when I read the question.
 

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Hive Fleet Pandora
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Then why does the unit have to take a pinning test? If Kharne can't be moved (and thus his squad can't be moved), shouldn't it follow that they can't be pinned by it as well?
 

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The other Kind of Fluff
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I'd have to disagree with Adepticon here. Lash is not affecting Kharne. It's affecting the unit of which Kharne belongs to. Kharne just has to move with his unit. Other examples I can think of:

If a unit moves, so does the IC.
If a unit assaults, so does the IC.
If a unit is swept, so is the IC.
If a unit falls back, so will the IC.
If a unit goes to ground, so does the IC.
Ky2, to be honest, I'm having a hard time seeing your examples of an Independent Character's compliance with his unit as being violated by the Adepticon. In this case, the Adepticon is addressing the potential of maximum movement, which would still require a squad with an IC to adhere to all the normal scenarios of moving, assaulting, sweeping, falling back, etc. A squad always moves at the slowest movement rate. Since Kharn cannot be moved by psi powers, the squad cannot either.

A hive tyrant with a tyrant guard retinue. Monstrous Creatures cannot go-to-ground but the guards can. If they do so while behind cover, the MC still enjoys the 3+ cover that his retinue gets even though it hasn't gone to ground.
The Tyrant/guard scenario is handled by the rules concerning majority cover. I don't think these can be used to talk about movement, since a squad doesn’t move at the majority speed, but rather, the slowest. :)

How about this for movement restrictions: A character in terminator armor, if joined to a squad of regular marines, will prevent the entire squad from Sweeping Advance.

EDIT: Here’s another way to think about it: Against Kharn’s squad, all the Lash mechanics technically go off. However, when it comes time to move the squad, the squad must move at the pace of its slowest member. Since Kharn cannot be moved by psi powers, the squad doesn’t move.
 

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LO's Shadow Captain
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How about this for movement restrictions: A character in terminator armor, if joined to a squad of regular marines, will prevent the entire squad from Sweeping Advance.
Even though the unit of regular marines, alone, would have otherwise been able to perform the Sweeping Advance. Kind of how Kharn (model in terminator armour, as example) stops the Lash movement from happening to his squad (or, Sweeping Advance with a squad of regular marines).

Makes sense to me!



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The other Kind of Fluff
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Then why does the unit have to take a pinning test? If Kharne can't be moved (and thus his squad can't be moved), shouldn't it follow that they can't be pinned by it as well?
I think I see where you’re going. Let me try hitting this from a different angle:

1) The rules for movement require that a unit move at the pace of its slowest model. Hence, Kharn's unit will move at Kharn's pace when affected by the Lash

2) The rules for pinning really only state that if a unit fails a pinning test, then it is immediately forced to go to ground. As Kharn is apart of the squad, he also must go to ground.
 

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Except if the squad he is in is fearless, if they're fearless they need not take the pinning test.
 

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If you look at how Kharn's rules are writen he is "immune" to to pyschic power. Dosn't say he can not be targeted. Score one more for Rabbit.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
If you look at how Kharn's rules are writen he is "immune" to to pyschic power. Dosn't say he can not be targeted. Score one more for Rabbit.
I think that most people run him with berzerkers anyways, so I'm not sure pinning will be an issue.
I'm going to be playing a pretty friendly game, so we will discuss immunity before the game. I'm pretty sure we will go with the squad can't be moved due to kharnes immunity.
Thanks so much for the help!
 

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King of the Burning Sands
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The thing is, Kharn is part of the unit. The power affects the unit, which includes Kharn. You can't pick and choose, you can't target the rest of the unit without targeting Kharn, as he is attached to it as per the Independent Character rules. Since the power is targeting the unit, and Kharn ignores the effects of the power, I'd have to learn more towards Adepticon's way of thinking on that one.
Nemsis got the right of it. It effects the unit which in turn effect him, so no go.
 

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Hive Fleet Pandora
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I understand what you guys are saying, and there is validity in this perspective. As a matter of fact, I'm learning that it seems to be the dominant view.

However, from my perspective, it's not that Kharne isn't moved by Lash, it's that he isn't affected by it at all. It's as if the enemy isn't even casting it on him. However, the squad is. Kharne isn't being moved by lash - lash is not doing anything to him at all. However, as part of the squad, he's moving because the squad is moving.

I have no problem playing this as the majority of the people here do, whether I think it should or shouldn't be played. The only parallel I can really think of is a marine-IC w/And They Shall Know No Fear joined to a squad without ATSKNF and they get swept in assault. I've asked this question here in the Rules Help forum.
 

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Cheeeese
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We have been playing it like this: The lasher can't move Kharn, but he can move the rest of the models in the unit (but lasher has to upheld coherency).

So you can push some of the models in the unit a little back or forward and so on, but you can't move Kharn. And more important - you can gather all the other models around Kharn for a shot with your defiler or plasmacannons.
 

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Hive Fleet Pandora
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We have been playing it like this: The lasher can't move Kharn, but he can move the rest of the models in the unit (but lasher has to upheld coherency).

So you can push some of the models in the unit a little back or forward and so on, but you can't move Kharn. And more important - you can gather all the other models around Kharn for a shot with your defiler or plasmacannons.
That sounds reasonable. I think if anything, that is how it should be played.
 

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The other Kind of Fluff
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However, from my perspective, it's not that Kharne isn't moved by Lash, it's that he isn't affected by it at all. It's as if the enemy isn't even casting it on him. However, the squad is. Kharne isn't being moved by lash - lash is not doing anything to him at all. However, as part of the squad, he's moving because the squad is moving.
This is kind of related: Again, going off the Adepticon, it states on page 30, "Kharn is completely unaffected by the following psychic powers (the power is not canceled, Kharn just ignores its effects):" I'm just pointing out that he can still be the target of pychic powers.
 
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