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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Alright, I wanna kill space marines. My friend has a terminator squad, assault squad, dreadnaught, two landraiders, a vindicator, two razorbacks, bunch of troops.

I play, as you might have guessed by the location of this post, the tau. I've got 6 crisis suits, 3 broadsides, 1 hammerhead, 4 stealth, 24 fw, kroot, kroot shaper, 4 kroot hounds.

I love my crisis suits. Its great to get those plasma rifles. I have two squads, 1 squad has plasma rifles and fusion blasters. The other one has missile pods and plasma rifles. I give each squad two drones. Sometimes, if I need to get a certain number of points, I'll give one guy in each squad a shield generator, so he can take the laz cannon.

I give the hammerhead the railgun in EVERY game. He just plays so many tanks, its good to have the railgun. Burst cannons also, but I generally move it 12" so it can only take glances.

Honestly, I don't like the firewarriors that much. I sometimes don't play them all, even in a 1500 point game.

I'm scared of his darn assassin, so I generally split my broadsides into two different squads. Each squad gets two shield drones. I keep them back whenever I can, so the only shots that reach them are genearlly the laz cannons, or that special god damn assassin.

Any tips or anything?
 

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Er, firstly, you kind of have to take a fw squad in a tau army, u have way too many battle suits. Get another hammerhead, and more kroot.
 

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Plasma Rifles, Railrifles, Railguns are a must.
 

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RailRifles and plasma are devious, however I really think you should take Firewarriors. I'm a Marine player and I hate those three toed [email protected] You are thinking too much about how to kill Marines in one go, the key to beating Marines is to make them make armor saves. 3+ is an easy number to roll, but a lot of times you are going to make them fail saves... I've seen hordes of Gretchin take marines down just due to sheer number of armor saves the marines had to make...
The more dice you roll, the more likely you are going to get bad rolls... trust me! :D
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
You misunderstand, I meant exactly what I said. " don't play them all" as in I dont take all of my firewarriors, as in I'm playing less than 24, even though I'm playing a 1500 point game. I mentioned it because many people play with 2-3 squads in that size of a game.

Railrifles are nice and all, but to take them I'd have to go buy a devilfish and 4 pathfinders just to get 3 railrifles. I don't see why I would spend all that money when I can just take a crisis team that has even better weapons.

In order to get the bonus from Aun'Shi, I've gotta spend 5 points a MODEL. And for 105 points, I could get a good-sized kroot squad, which is far more effective than aun'shi himself.

I see what you're saying about the armor saves, but you must admit that it is easier to just skip the armor save. I've gotta get around those damn terminators, or else they can do some damage. What better way than to make a squad of crisis suits that fires off 9 ap 2/1 shots a turn, killing his damn terminators almost every time.

I also love my stealth suits. They're very solid.

The problem is, I see, in my mind, this anti-marine strategy working every time. There's always something that just goes wrong, which is why he wins most of the time.

Any other suggestions?
What should I try to do with each unit?
 

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Originally posted by evevrythingstatic@Oct 19 2003, 12:54
RailRifles and plasma are devious, however I really think you should take Firewarriors. I'm a Marine player and I hate those three toed [email protected] You are thinking too much about how to kill Marines in one go, the key to beating Marines is to make them make armor saves. 3+ is an easy number to roll, but a lot of times you are going to make them fail saves... I've seen hordes of Gretchin take marines down just due to sheer number of armor saves the marines had to make...
The more dice you roll, the more likely you are going to get bad rolls... trust me! :D
Firewarriors aren't that cheap. Alex is right to leave them out for SMs.

I calculated the statistics for the odds of killing of SMs with firewarriors, it wasn't pretty. Armor saves are very powerful, and it just isn't cost effecient to try to shoot alot and get lucky. [edit: so, I meant to add that AP is always the way to go. If you can pierce the enemy's armor, do it).


I think the crisis are a good idea, but with all of your friend's armor, I think you need more broadsides. Also, the rail gun on the hammerhead is nice, but broadsides have better chances to hit, and the same weapon power, so I'd start using an ion cannon instead on the H-Head.

As for the assasin, well as I've said before, I don't know his rules, but he can't possibly assault your broadsides if you block with another unit, so just go with the kroot, (plus hounds, I firmly believe that you have to use hounds if you want kroot to be powerful in CC), to screen.

Kroot have aweful saves though, so they'll get plinked off from range pretty bad if you're not careful.


In that case, aunshi and some firewarriors might be better. The firewarriors can provide better longe range firepower than the kroot while they're screening, and aunshi can be a tough cookie. Use him to reduce the assasin's attacks down to 1, then lay into him.
 

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And with all that armor, the pathfinders could really do some good. They couls mrk the tanks so you have an EVEN better chance too hit with your broadsides. And lighting up termies then blasting them with fusin guns or plasma rifles. Sorry im a firm supporter in pathfinders. And i mean if nothing else you could force ther termies or mariens to tak multiple pinning test..that stall them a turn.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I was never really impressed by pathfinders, which is why I don't know them or a devilfish. I think their roles, even with the new railrifles, are easily filled with other units. I like stealth suits and fw to do the marking, and my XV suits to do the shooting.

Stealth suits are very nice, as they have the same point per shot racio as the fws, but with their stealth generators, jump packs, and 3+ saves they are not only more mobile, but harder to kill. I can also give one per squad a marker light.

What about some of the details of my army? If I did decide to field all crisis suits and all broadsides, how would I go about equiping them? Twin link? Shield generator? Shield drones? Gun drones?

Tactic-wise, what should I be making my crisis suits do? My hammerhead? Broadsides? Fws? Stealth?
 

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Ya, FW's are 1+, so you have to take one.

And it's not really good measure to not include any troops. The marines can probably stomp you because your model numbers are very low, and they can concentrate the fire on more expensive models.

Crisis suits are amazing at attacking marines. 3 crisis suits decimated an entire marine squad that disembarked from a rhino in one turn. Firewarriors shouldn't be overlooked at all. AT LEAST take one squad with Aun'Shi if you think they suck. They provide nice little road-blocks to your expensive stuff, AND block the line of sight to keep them from shooting at your expensive stuff, AND they kill guys.

No firewarriors is just bad Tau.
 

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ion cannons are not as good as u may think against marines- they rarely justify the amount of points u spent on a hammerhead. This is especially so as he is taking 2 landraiders and a vindicator (which can make a mess of those battlesuits of yours)- the extra railgun shot is usually worth it (glancing/penetrating the tank on a 4+ is a deal better than most other ppl get). Also, if you want to deal with scouts, that ordinance template is perfect

Terminators? easy, plasma gun equiped crisis suits should deal with them incredibly quickly (i dont even use Terminators anymore because of this). Indeed, plasma-equiped XV8s are most likely going to be the mainstay of your shooting against him if u want your shooting to be as effective as it can be

firewarriors are probably not going to be great in this army, there are better ways of dealing with the marines, however they would be the perfect firing squad to deal with that assassin (u have only got to get past 2 4+ invulnerable saves, same chances of dealing with 2 scouts...)

Pathfinders are not as good as ppl would think, however, i can tell u now that marine players have an unreasoning paranoia of them now (rail-rilfe), so if u r planning to disrupt his battle plans, use these guys

Kroot are going to be a waste of points. If ur marine player takes a LRC then it will punch most of them off their feet in one, maybe two shooting phases.

Dont bother with O'Shovah or Aunshi- he is going to rip u to peices in close combat regardless of whether u have I3 and WS3, it doesnt change anything and it wastes points

Im not a Tau player, im a marine, so this is all done from what I have learned from battles against them before. Make of that what u will
 

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The ion cannon has reach though. Crisis suits have to get alot closer to the termies to take em out then a hammerhead with an ion cannon does.
 

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I calculated the statistics for the odds of killing of SMs with firewarriors, it wasn't pretty. Armor saves are very powerful, and it just isn't cost effecient to try to shoot alot and get lucky. [edit: so, I meant to add that AP is always the way to go. If you can pierce the enemy's armor, do it).
Whilst good to use as guidlines, I never put any faith in the odds of one unit killing another unit. I always hear stuff like " Eldar guardians suck, 'cause they are only capable of killing 0.4 Space Marines per turn" The only problem I've ever had is that in 40K you have to roll dice, thus screwing up statistics. The random element of a die roll often throws the monkey wrench in the "odds". I've seen tons of stuff in games that wasn't supposed to happen. Eldar guardians repelling the assault of a Blood Angels Veteran Assault squad(the marine player only rolled 4 on his fall back move and the Eldar player rolled a 2 so the guardians didn't get to whipe them out, but it was still fun to watch) I watched in terror as My Terminator Assault squad was mowed down by a IG squad in one shooting phase. :huh:

Also many times the people who come up with those stats are caculating a single Tau FW vs a SM or Firewarrior squad vs Tactical squad. Most races will come up short in those matchups. But I'm talking about massed firepower. Several squads shooting the crap out of one squad. A simple but rarely used tactic, I tend to use it in all of my games, and you might be suprised how effective it is. Many times I have witnessed people playing a "shooty" army, who spread out their fire too much. instead of concentrating firepower and systematicly picking apart the enemy .

I totally agree that if you have weapons capable of Piercing armor, then by all means use them to their full advantage. Just don't over look some of the lesser weapons. Lemme tell ya, Shotguns are bad ass weapons... And even though one Lasgun isn't very impressive, 50+ Lasguns are terrifying.

Just my 2 credits....
 

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im having trouble with space marines lately, specificly space wolves and khorne... i really dont like thier saves... i use 9 broadsides (765 points) in every game i play.... is this bad? i use this in every game too,

HQ = 312 x 2 = 624

Shas’o
Points: 75 + 16 + 12 + 5 + 32 = 140
Weapons: Plasma rifle, fusion blaster, multitracker 2 drones

2 Shas’vre Bodyguards
Points: 40 + 24 + 12 + 10 = 86
Weapons: Twin Plasma rifles, fusion blaster, multitracker


at 12in each model one gets 3 ap 2 shots a turn...
too many points??
they dont often kill thier worth...




(i wish you could give broadsides tw ion cannons...that would be bad ass......)
 

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@everythingstatic: You're welcome to your oppinion, but I couldn't disagree more.
Whether you mass the firepower, or exchange between single squads, the overall effective kills are the same. Tactically, massed firepower may mean that the unit will be forced to take leadership tests first, or something, but that's irrelevant really. After all, if SMs mass firepower against firewarriors, they'll just kill them that much faster, the result remains the same.


Also, the fact that it is a dice driven game is exactly why it lends itself well to statistics. Each die only has 6 sides, and without cheating of some sort, the odds of each side coming up can be assumed to be 1:6. I just don't think there's anything mystical about it.

What you've seen doesn't make the statistics any less true either, it just points out what most people playing games of relative chance know, that people get lucky. We wouldn't know that they had gotten lucky if we didn't have a concept for what 'should' have happened though.

As for how the statistics were calculated, they were determined by an equal point ratio. 120 pts of Firewarriors versus 120 pts of SMs.

@qwerter:

Egads, that's alot of points for broadsides. Are you always killing things with armor with those broadsides? I think you need to consider the consequences of overkill qwerter, that will help your army list alot. If you run out of big targets to hit with your broadsides, then those points on the big guns are wasted. They may be powerful, and you may be able to use those rail guns to vaporize a few marine troopers every turn, but the rest of them will charge forward and destroy you. Look at it this way, you have the same chance of killing a SM with a T/L Plasma Rifle and a T/L Railgun, but the railgun on that broadside is a heavy weapon so it can't fire after moving, it has better range, but not the maneuverability so it can be harder for it to get LOS, and its more expensive.

Maybe that was obvious, if so, sorry, but I think those broadsides are almost certainly a waste of points. Try 3 next time.

Your bodyguard sounds pretty good. I don't like the short range of fusion blasters, but lots of people around here seem to like them for SM killing.
 

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each broadside has one drone... i could drop the drone and replace sms with plasmas to increase mobility... (los is a big problem) i think i'll take 6 next time and a hammerhead.... no?

i think the fusions work ok... but i should try missles sometime...

thanks...
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
qwerter4, I think your broadsides are your downfall. First off, its probably not a good idea to put one drone on each broadside, as it requires a total of three hard points, and it is probably better to give two of them target locks or something. I mean, if you put them at the back of your army, only those long-ranged lazcannons are going to reach you, so I'd give one broadside in the squad shield drone duties, and give the other two target locks so you can fire at different targets with each broadside.

But, qwerter4, I do agree with your crisis suit equipment. I have one squad with the same equipment, often, also. I consider it important to give each units of yours a purpose. And the purpose of this unit is to destroy the terminators in one turn with 9 ap2/1 shots. But how the hell do you get over 600 points for 2 HQs!? I never have gotten one of them up to 200, nowhere NEAR 200. And 200 is 100 less than 300! WHAT THE HELL DO YOU DO TO THEM!?

Papa bear is right, you're getting too many broadsides. Get two squads at the very most. Crisis suits are a wiser investment, I believe.
 

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Papabear:

The reason why the ion cannon is redundant is because chances are, he will be moving those terminators towards you, otherwise he is fairly foolish....You cannot argue that a crisis suits squad worth of firepower is more effective than his fire (esp. so if you take those annoying shield drones)

Also, the fact that it is a dice driven game is exactly why it lends itself well to statistics. Each die only has 6 sides, and without cheating of some sort, the odds of each side coming up can be assumed to be 1:6. I just don't think there's anything mystical about it.
unless using a rigged dice, the reason it is mystical is that u cant actually determine exactly whats going to be rolled. Stats are kinda silly usually as they can only give u a rough indication, and ive seen this lead to complacency so many times- i know this isnt the statistics 'fault' but its temptation all the same
 
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