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So Im thinking about starting a Tau Army once Ive completed my Chaos and was wondering are kroot essential in a Tau army?
 

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Striving for the right
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So Im thinking about starting a Tau Army once Ive completed my Chaos and was wondering are kroot essential in a Tau army?
I never leave home without at least one squad of Kroot in my Tau Army. They give you the very useful benefit of infiltration (especially in woods where they rock!) or even just the threat of it, their shooting isn't at all bad and they can give a reasonable account of themselves in HTH, especially if they charge and/or have kroot hounds (Init 5) with them. Point for point they've just got to be worth it.

So, go on, get yourself a Kroot squad - it's just plain daft not to!

~ Ravenscraig ~
 

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Like most everything else in the Tau army, some hate them, some swear by them. If you're not playing a Farsight army though, you'd be remiss not to at least have some, even if you don't always field them.

The way I look at it, it's only 70 points to throw ten of them into a stand of trees 18 inches from your opponent's table edge, so you might as well take them, even if you just sit them there the whole game.

Also, most annoying way to lock up Obliterators. Kroot and Oblits have peculiar stats in such a way that it's possible 6 kroot can get in a fight with one oblit and they can sit there fighting all game and not kill anything.
 

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Spiky
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I never user kroots and I don't see the need of it. If your a good tactician, no one will ever come near you firewarriors that will be able to crush them. Even against orks do I kick their green b*** back to outerspace before they even come close. Railguns allow you to take care of bigger transports as most of other guns can deal with light stuff. Killing infantry is never a problem with fire warriors, nom matter of many friends they brought with them. Killing tyranides is a bit harder, but once y'ouve established priority, you will easily bring them down to thin numbers. Against Space marines or chaos, I never saw a kroot do anything usefull other than slow them down a little (remember I also play chaos). Against eldars, they might do some good, that is if your fire warriors are pretty unlucky.

I still need to be convinced about those.
 

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The deep down truth
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I never user kroots and I don't see the need of it. If your a good tactician, no one will ever come near you firewarriors that will be able to crush them. Even against orks do I kick their green b*** back to outerspace before they even come close. Railguns allow you to take care of bigger transports as most of other guns can deal with light stuff. Killing infantry is never a problem with fire warriors, nom matter of many friends they brought with them. Killing tyranides is a bit harder, but once y'ouve established priority, you will easily bring them down to thin numbers. Against Space marines or chaos, I never saw a kroot do anything usefull other than slow them down a little (remember I also play chaos). Against eldars, they might do some good, that is if your fire warriors are pretty unlucky.

I still need to be convinced about those.
Hah that’s a funny post, no one will ever come near Fire Warriors eh.

OK I have a Nid 2000pt assault force, 36+ Stealers all with scuttle (free 6 move after everything else and fleet), winged Tyrant, winged Warriors, 3 units of 10 Hormies, Broodlord and Stealer retinue and Lictors. 95% of these units can be in CC by turn two, basically thats all of them.
If you stop the Hormies the Stealers rip you apart, if you stop the Stealers the Hormies, warriors and Tyrant rip you apart, if you stop the Warriors and Tyrant the Stealers rip you apart and so on and so on. (oh and we still have the Lictors to add to the havoc).
So please tell me what tactics you would use to prevent my Nids tirning your apparently "untouchable" Fire Warriors into blue paste. I am telling you there is no way your FW would remain untouched, even if they were in a Devilfish.

Kroot are awesome, they are the single most useful part of the Tau list and they are the pre-eminent anti assault squad, and I do not mean just by simply rushing into CC. Using the Kroots infiltrate ability to influence the deployment or movement of the opponent’s units is just as valuable a tactic. After all who wants to chance a valuable assault squad against either 20 rapid fire shots or 30 attacks on the charge (and that is just a basic 10 man squad) or even more attacks if Hounds are included) at INT_ as well) from a 118pt squad (10 Kroot and 8 hounds)? Let me answer that for you, not many people.

If you have never seen Kroot do anything useful, its because you never saw anyone who knows how to play them using them. Ask any decent player on these forums who use them (Onlainari, Ravenscraig and many others) just how valuable a Kroot squad is and see what answers you get.

I hate this sort of unreasoned post, you just dismiss a fantastic unit but give no reasons why or support your claim that FW are never touched with evidence as to how you accomplish this feat (I know I cannot guarantee my FW's will not be caught, I am good at preventing it but it happens). Instead of asking to be convinced (there is plenty of evidence, tactica’s, articles proving how good Kroot are) you should be convincing us why they are apparently so crap according to you.
 

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I never user kroots and I don't see the need of it. <SNIP> Against Space marines or chaos, I never saw a kroot do anything usefull other than slow them down a little (remember I also play chaos). Against eldars, they might do some good, that is if your fire warriors are pretty unlucky. I still need to be convinced about those.
I can tell you one thing that Kroot can do that nothing else can and I was able to do it in a game last night - against Chaos, of all things! Because they can infiltrate I deployed my Kroot along the back edge of a wood, which was about 8-9" from the front edge. On turn one I was able to fire 10 shots from the Kroot (given their 24" range") into the Chaos squad some 18" in front of them and managed to take 2 down. Next turn same detail, but only managed to kill one. On my third turn the Chaos squad were in rapid fire range and I took out another 2. The Chaos squad shot back at me with pistols but the 4+ save allowed me to make all my saves bar one. Next time I got in another round of shooting taking out another 2 marines before losing 6 Kroot to 3 flamer templates although I still passed my morale test. The Chaos marines then attempted to charge with his surviving 4 marines and fell short, whereupon I withdrew out of the wood (at full speed and continued to fall back, managing to take down 1 more marine with the 6 shots I had from my surviving 3 Kroot.

I'm not suggesting that this will always be the case but I do put it forward as a perfectly ordinary example of what Kroot are capable of doing. For the loss of 49pts worth of models I took out 8 Chaos marines which are, what, 120pts? Had I had hounds I would've probably charged too, not just shot.

There is no doubt that Kroot are hardly the be all and end all (of anything) but they do give Tau an edge they otherwise wouldn't have. They can infiltrate, have an improved cover save in woods, can see and shoot through 12" of woods and move through them without penalty, have a Str_ rapid fire rifle, have _ Str_ attacks on the charge and can take hounds to make them even nastier in HTH. Whilst they are not an answer to everything, for a mere _pts a shot I'd suggest they are well worth the investment for what they can do - what else can you get for that amount of points that can has such potential?? In fact, even the threat of having a squad of infiltrating Kroot can effect the way your opponent will deploy and I would suggest that alone is worth the 70pts a squad of 10 will cost you.

I'd recommend you try a squad for a bit. I'm quite prepared to bet a squad on unpainted FWs that you'll be pleasantly surprised at what your Kroot can do for you ... ... ...

~ Ravenscraig ~
 

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resident iconoclast
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I'm with Rikimaru. Kroot are pretty much fantastic.

Point for point, they're better shots than Fire Warriors. (that is to say, ten Kroot are slightly more effective when shooting Marines than seven Fire Warriors)

They infiltrate, so they can virtually always start in cover, and in cover they're as resilient as Fire Warriors.

Point for point, they match normal Space Marines in combat (that is, if we compare fifteen Kroot to seven Marines, it comes down to who charges and who strikes first. Kroot have a reasonable chance of actually winning that combat)

The only area in which they're really lacking is leadership, and Firewarrior leadership really isn't much better.

Perhaps most important, Kroot add some close combat utility to the army (which nothing else in the army can really do) while not significantly detracting from its available firepower. You can't really ask for more than that.


Do you have to play them? No. They're not required. You can certainly even win without them.

Are they good, though? Yes. They absolutely are, and you should think long and hard before deciding to not play them. I can only really see it being a good call in a themed and thoroughly mechanized list. In any sort of mixed or gun-line army, I'd almost always try to squeeze out the points for them, somewhere (which isn't really that hard, since they're dirt cheap.)
 
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I've never liked using kroot when I play as Tau, on the rare occasions when I don't field my farsight enclave themed army, but theres no harm in trying out a squad or two of them and seeing what you think.

I play an enclaved themed army, so I know that I can get by without using kroot; they, in my opinion, are not essential to have but for the few points they cost they can do you much good if you know how to use them.
 

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The only area in which they're really lacking is leadership, and Firewarrior leadership really isn't much better.
Actually, for the record, Brother, unless the Fire Warriors have a Shas'ui, the Kroots leadership is just as good - or as bad, depending on your perspective!

~ Raven ~
 

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resident iconoclast
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Sure. But they do have the option both to upgrade their leadership and get a bonding knife.

The Kroot have a leadership upgrade option, too, but it's just a worse buy.

You're right--they're basically the same. Firewarrior leadership upgrades are just a little better, though, so I typically list Kroot leadership as being just a little worse.

For what it's worth, though, it takes more to provoke panic tests on Kroot squads, as they tend to be larger, and they stay above half longer for the same reason. Those are worth something.
 

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The Kroot have a leadership upgrade option, too, but it's just a worse buy. For what it's worth, though, it takes more to provoke panic tests on Kroot squads, as they tend to be larger, and they stay above half longer for the same reason. Those are worth something.
Yup, you're spot on there. Which is the main reason I never take a Shaper or go for the 6+ AS - for all those extra points I just go for more basic Kroot!!

~ Raven ~
 

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Firefly
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Agreed. I would rather have more bodies on the ground than the extra leadership or 6+ save. If the Shaper had access to some better gear then maybe, but it doesn't.
 

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Kroot are not necessary at all. Some love them. I run a very succesful Tau army, the current list of which has never been defeated (all 6 times I've played it, heh.), which relies entirely on no kroot.
I just don't like them. They are too slow for me. That being said, they do become necessary to fill out points at the 2,500 point levels.

But some like them, I just don't.
 

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The deep down truth
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Kroot are not necessary at all. Some love them. I run a very succesful Tau army, the current list of which has never been defeated (all 6 times I've played it, heh.), which relies entirely on no kroot.
I just don't like them. They are too slow for me. That being said, they do become necessary to fill out points at the 2,500 point levels.

But some like them, I just don't.
Well necessary depends on how you use em, army configuration and other factors, I would class my 2 units of Kroot and hounds as absolutely necessary, in fact I would go so far as to say indispensable. They do so much more than Fire Warriors. To be truly effective FW's need a Devilfish and at XXpts this soon makes more than two units an expensive option, however Kroot can infiltrate, which gives them the opportunity to get good field position very early in the game, they have effective shooting and can more than hold their own in assaults (and are to be feared if Kroot hounds are taken).

If you do not take Kroot then you will spend the game trying to avoid situations that will lead to assaults (or the units that can assault) and this can lead to some less than favourable tactical situations. How many times have you had to avoid a part of the field to avoid that scary assault unit with your FW's or XV8's, well with a couple of units of Kroot it is often the reverse. The opponent will avoid the Kroot with his expensive assault unit, because he knows that the cheap Kroot can really punish his expensive units (even if they lose).

If you play it craftily you can even use the Kroot to heard an opponents unit into position to be punished by XV8's or Stealths.

You see this is what dissenters of Kroot fail to see, they think the Kroot are an inferior FW unit with a poor save and average CC abilities (not true if you know how to use them by the way). They fail to see how the unit can be used to influence the opponents deployment, movement and tactical decisions. I use my Kroot more as deployment deterrents than as anything else, just placing 10 Kroot and 8 Hounds near a valuable unit, or in terrain where you want to dissuade the opponent from moving into an area of the field is much more valuable than just using them as an assault/speed bump.

Of course the well known use for Kroot is as anti infiltrator units, and this is a use they excel at, I have lost count of the times my Kroot have intercepted Marine (or other army) scout units, even if they die they will usually inflict casualties on the unit, but more importantly they allow the target unit to get away (usually a much more valuable unit).
Kroot are also excellent in dense terrain boards, where the cover save really negates their poor armour save.

I make a point of letting any new opponent I play know just how cheap but effective my Kroot are, something along the lines of "And now for the Kroot, these guys are amazing, Xpts, Bolter equivilent shooting, good assault, Kroot hounds are even better, 3 attacks on the charge at INT* and STR* and these guys are only X pts, infiltrate as well. All for 118pts". Sure makes them think when I deploy them near their 240pt assault squad I can tell you.
It is all about psyching out the opponent and Kroot are brilliant for this.

Problem is not many players devote time to discovering and perfecting the tactical depth this unit offers, they just dismiss them, but more fool them I say. :D:D
 

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Rikimaru, I found your reply on page one to be true and strangely funny (i am laughing with you, not at you)

I find Kroot to be a necessary part of a Tau army. They are great at assault and screening your army against enemy CC. To those who haven't experienced the awesomeness that consists of a Tau wave of death in CC, you need to play against better players. Trust me almost every one has ways to disrupt the Tau Line even when it is mobile. another note on the nids: the unit most deadly is Lictor, Not only is this thing capable in CC but it can deepstrike and assault in the same turn. not a pretty sight without some kroot to mix it up.

I hope this helps

Knight
 

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To those who haven't experienced the awesomeness that consists of a Tau wave of death in CC, you need to play against better players.
Funny, I don't use kroot and I seriously doubt the players I play against need to get better. (And I can easily say that I have played a vast plethora of people either in real life or on VASSAL; the ones online being in the majority lately.)
 

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The deep down truth
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Funny, I don't use kroot and I seriously doubt the players I play against need to get better. (And I can easily say that I have played a vast plethora of people either in real life or on VASSAL; the ones online being in the majority lately.)
Reever, I think that he means that players who know how to close down on an army are a real threat to Tau, while you may have been lucky enough to not have it happen to you, it is never the less a real threat, one which Kroot are very good at handling.

I play with and against Tau and have done for many years. I am an experienced player and know most of the tactics for playing with Tau. However I also play Nids and I can say in all seriousness that I have yet to meet a player (Tau or not) who can prevent a second turn assault into at least some part of their armies lines from my assault army. I am not the best Nid player by any means ans getting the assaults does not mean game over every game by any means, but it is an effective army and tactic.

I have found having Kroot with hounds gives you a definite safety margin to absorb at least some of the assault and to inflict some damage in return.

I find two units of Kroot with hounds, a unit of FW's in DF and a unit of Gundrones (protect my Shas'El) works really well, the Kroot do their infiltrate, anti assault stuff, the FW are protected by the Devilfish and the Drones can be used anywhere. Without taking the Kroot though I would be taking either vulnerable foot slogging FW's or more of the expensive DF. This is why I like Kroot they are cheaper than FW and much more versatile.
 

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Reever, I think that he means that players who know how to close down on an army are a real threat to Tau, while you may have been lucky enough to not have it happen to you, it is never the less a real threat, one which Kroot are very good at handling.
Quite the opposite Riki, its happened to me more times than I'd like to count; but then again I won't use kroot most of the time for a specific reason so my own tactics have to be that much different in order for my Tau to have that much more of a chance...:C
 

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Spiky
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Hah that’s a funny post, no one will ever come near Fire Warriors eh.

...


I hate this sort of unreasoned post, you just dismiss a fantastic unit but give no reasons why or support your claim that FW are never touched with evidence as to how you accomplish this feat (I know I cannot guarantee my FW's will not be caught, I am good at preventing it but it happens). Instead of asking to be convinced (there is plenty of evidence, tactica’s, articles proving how good Kroot are) you should be convincing us why they are apparently so crap according to you.
As always, my dear Rikimaru, your words lack some delicacy other players naturaly tend to apply to their answers. Also, you assume I've answered without thinking (reasoning), which is knowing me poorly. This matter aside, there is a way to do things in order not to be overwhelmed by tyranids. Here's how it goes :

First, keed in mind that I always field more than 50% onf my points in troops, in this particular situation : Fire Warriors. I also assume the current scenario is a seek and destroy one, not a hold objective or something fancy like that. Finally, I don't have 2000 points of TAU, my usual games are at 1500 points with this army. Soon, my ranks will be bolstered with more models, but for now, i'm building my new ork army.

Deployment :

The fire warriors will be deployed at 8" or 9" from table edge, everything else behind. If possible most of my units will be deployed in cover, with a line of sight on what's comming.

Turn 1 :

1- Firearriors, a lot of them, shoots at Geenstealers first, while the ML Shas'ui shoot his markerlight at the BFG winged Tyran. Usualy, this take away one or two full squad of whatever's comming. The pathfinder also shoot all their ML at the winget tirant.

2- My devilfish are sent forward as mobile firebase and speed bump. You won't need to move your troops anyway. My single hammer head is using submunitions to blas away packs of small bugs that would require my fire warriors a target priority test in order to shoot. And sorry Riki, but I don't have a sky ray, so my pirannas are responsible for seeker missiles launching. Speaking of those, they will also go forward, with explicit intention of shooting at carnifex and other beast. The idea is to have some squads of geenstealers or else to go for the pirranna and waste some precious time trying to kill something they can't lock in CC so I will be able to shoot them in turn 2. As for the big monster, I leave them to my XV8 Crisis suits. I start with the small ones and end with the big ones as they are slowers.

Oh, and about these marker light I've scored on the tyran, well this is a good idea to call for seekers missiles !!!

Turn 2 :

Depending of the distance and number of lesser lings and of the amount of cover between them and my units, some of them might move backward. All that can shoot will continue to shoot at the biggest units of small bugs remaining. Same for the rail gun which will still use the submunitions. The suits will continue to shoot at the big monster. It my pirannas are still alive and kicking, they will start to kill either the warriors or the carnifexs.

Turn 3 :

Then, if everything goes according to plans, whatever should reach my line will be weak enough to be killed by my Fire Warriors. My suits continue to dispose of these big monsters, with the help of the railhead and maybe the rmaining piranna (you might be surprise how players tend to leave these alive no matter how annoying they may be). If needed, all my fire warriors will go close up and personnal with the small bugs and will get rid of those.

I've done this twice and it worked perfectly. It works even better against godzilla nids, where there are less bug and more monsters. And this is if the battlefield is flat and empty, because I've developped some neat strategies using the field as a huge trap in order to maximise my firepower.

Now, I must admit that a line of kroots might do as well as firewarriors, but they would have to be deployed at 12" to be able to shoot a the nids during first turn, or be infiltrated closer and risk giving an assault move to many nids units, not to mention locking them in close combat, which would prevent me from firing at them.

Those two last points are why I wouldn't use kroots against nids. That being said, I wouldn't mind if someone want to use them.
 

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The deep down truth
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As always, my dear Rikimaru, your words lack some delicacy other players naturaly tend to apply to their answers. Also, you assume I've answered without thinking (reasoning), which is knowing me poorly. This matter aside, there is a way to do things in order not to be overwhelmed by tyranids. Here's how it goes :
My post did not lack in delicacy, you simply wrote of a great unit and basically gave no supporting evidence to support it, apart from your 'I am great at kicking everyones butt' and 'I am great at kicking Ork butt' points. I did not assume anything, your post was unreasoned in the answer it gave.

First, keed in mind that I always field more than 50% onf my points in troops, in this particular situation : Fire Warriors. I also assume the current scenario is a seek and destroy one, not a hold objective or something fancy like that. Finally, I don't have 2000 points of TAU, my usual games are at 1500 points with this army. Soon, my ranks will be bolstered with more models, but for now, i'm building my new ork army.
50% Fire Warriors, rubs hands in glee.

Deployment :

The fire warriors will be deployed at 8" or 9" from table edge, everything else behind. If possible most of my units will be deployed in cover, with a line of sight on what's comming.
Fine my 3 units of Stealers get to deploy (usually at 24") and then get a free 6" move, then they get a 6" move and then fleet of claw (13" min, 18" max which leaves not very much ground to cover, so turn two assault usually).
My winged creatures get 12" move and my Hormies get 6" move and fleet plus 12" assault. I also have an infiltrating Broodlord and his stealers. Oh and the Stealers get a 4+ save (ext carapice).
So basically your going to get a wave of units hitting your lines at the same time and whatever you do you cannot kill enough. I have synapse a plenty (so no fall back from shooting and the Stealers have great LDS) so you cannot even use that tactic and the Stealers are non synpase anyway.

1- Firearriors, a lot of them, shoots at Geenstealers first, while the ML Shas'ui shoot his markerlight at the BFG winged Tyran. Usualy, this take away one or two full squad of whatever's comming. The pathfinder also shoot all their ML at the winget tirant.
If you can see the Stealers then fine shoot em, because while your shooting them the Warriors and Hormies are closing in, shoot the Hormies and the stealers are Ok. Basically whatever you shoot there is always going to be something to rip into your lines, when that happens your in trouble because Stealers are non synapse, and the Hormies will always be in range of synpase.
1 or 2 squads will not cut it dude, because that still leaves many more who will all be in your lines and you cannot shoot through CC (which helps the slower stuff, if any are slowed) and you cannot shoot units in CC.

My devilfish are sent forward as mobile firebase and speed bump. You won't need to move your troops anyway. My single hammer head is using submunitions to blas away packs of small bugs that would require my fire warriors a target priority test in order to shoot. And sorry Riki, but I don't have a sky ray, so my pirannas are responsible for seeker missiles launching. Speaking of those, they will also go forward, with explicit intention of shooting at carnifex and other beast. The idea is to have some squads of geenstealers or else to go for the pirranna and waste some precious time trying to kill something they can't lock in CC so I will be able to shoot them in turn 2. As for the big monster, I leave them to my XV8 Crisis suits. I start with the small ones and end with the big ones as they are slowers.
Fine send the Devilfish, it is only going to stop one unit, IF I decide to attack it. I have no Carnies and I definatelty would not be wasting time on Piranhas with Stealers, they will be busy eating FW's and XV8's. You are assuming I would follow your tactics, well sorry but I have many years of experience with this lsit and I am not that gullable.

The Hammerhead is one unit and it has to hit. Rending from Stealers, Tyrants and Warriors will deal with that anyway.

, and about these marker light I've scored on the tyran, well this is a good idea to call for seekers missiles !!!
It really does not matter if you wound the Tyrant, simple fact of the matter is that plenty enough will survive and rip a hole through your lines, if your FW are set up on foot it is even better for me.


Turn 2 :

Depending of the distance and number of lesser lings and of the amount of cover between them and my units, some of them might move backward. All that can shoot will continue to shoot at the biggest units of small bugs remaining. Same for the rail gun which will still use the submunitions. The suits will continue to shoot at the big monster. It my pirannas are still alive and kicking, they will start to kill either the warriors or the carnifexs.
Thats just it though there will not be any distance between your units and the Nids, at least 80% of my list will be in your lines. That is the beauty of the list, it is fast and when it gets to your lines your shooting is either stopped or severly restricted. Most units will be in CC so will be immune to being shot from Pirahnas or whatever.
Oh and I have two Lictors that are going to cause havoc 'behind' your lines.

Turn 3 :

Then, if everything goes according to plans, whatever should reach my line will be weak enough to be killed by my Fire Warriors. My suits continue to dispose of these big monsters, with the help of the railhead and maybe the rmaining piranna (you might be surprise how players tend to leave these alive no matter how annoying they may be). If needed, all my fire warriors will go close up and personnal with the small bugs and will get rid of those.
Believe me by turn three you will be struggling to survive, the only Tau list that has a chance against this type of Nid list is a fully mobile list with Kroot help. As far as the big monsters goes, I only have one because I do not need Carnies.

I've done this twice and it worked perfectly. It works even better against godzilla nids, where there are less bug and more monsters. And this is if the battlefield is flat and empty, because I've developped some neat strategies using the field as a huge trap in order to maximise my firepower.
I can guarantee you have not done it against a list like mine, the list is in the Nids army list forum check it out here and come back to me with a plan to combat it, PM me if you like and we can stop hijacking the thread http://www.librarium-online.com/forums/tyranid-army-lists/57700-2000pt-tweaked-list.html.

Now, I must admit that a line of kroots might do as well as firewarriors, but they would have to be deployed at 12" to be able to shoot a the nids during first turn, or be infiltrated closer and risk giving an assault move to many nids units, not to mention locking them in close combat, which would prevent me from firing at them.

Those two last points are why I wouldn't use kroots against nids. That being said, I wouldn't mind if someone want to use them.
The Kroot would be very handy at tying Nid units down while other units re-deployed. If hounds are taken they are on a par with Hormies and even their shooting is decent. They can infitrate to prevent Nid units racing down the field and can take down Synapse creatures (or prevent them from keeping up with the non synapse creatures and thus prevent them racing forward or even ending up lurking.
Kroot have many uses against Nids and are extremely useful, much more so than basic FW's.

Anywya like I said if you want to answer this post (the Nid part then fine, but I will answer you by PM to avoid hijacking the thread further).

Kroot are an awesome unit and they perform well against any list, use them properly and with some invention and they always reward.
 
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