[Willis the Red]

I was just wondering what people thought as my friend plays WE and seems to firmly believe that she is just an elf sorceress that has tricked all of bretonnia into doing her biding. I firmly believe that she is an ethereal being of great power and is not influenced by elves in any way.

thoughts?

cheers :beer:

 

[Lost Nemesis]

Put a closing date on all polls!



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[8people]

I think she's both

Athel Loren is on the border of Brettonia and has always been a fae place of magic and unusual happenings. She is not *just* an elf sorceress, but the pictures of herself, and the fay enchantress model - have pointed ears.

Have you looked at any of the Wood Elf special characters? Ariel has large butterfly wings, great control over life, Orion is a spirit creature who regenerates with the seasons, Naestra and Arahan cannot die while the other lives. (I don't really think Ariel and Orion are elves in the real sense anymore, they are spirit creatures more than anything.)

She could easily have been imbued greatly by the forest and inspired to assist the Brettonians in their greatest hour of need. Fooling them into doing their bidding? I disagree, she is no longer a wood elf - though she *seems* to have started as one - she has nothing to do with her kin in the woods, taking more time to focus on the brettonians, teaching their special children the ways of magic. When I read the Brettonian armybook I was rather surprised by the spell lists open to them, I even asked my partner "Why is there a wood elf picture?" when I saw a picture of the fay enchantress! (Wood Elves: Life, Beasts and Athel Loren lists, Brettonians: Life, Beasts and Heavens for the Prophetess)

As for "She's tricking brettonians!" I think that's more just pre-match posturing

 

[Rabbit]

I've added a closing date and since merged the two related threads into one (votes included).

 

[Tekore]

I think this is one of the more interesting fluff questions in Warhammer Fantasy. I tend to agree with 8people. Perhaps at one point she was created by Athel Loren to cajole Bretonnian aid, but at this point I think she's become a spirit of Bretonnia, bolstered by Bretonnian belief and deeds and not beholden to Wood Elf will.

Otherwise, it'd be a bit tricky with our ward save when we fought Wood Elves, eh?

Tekore

 

[Boskie43]

As I play both Brets and Welves...

I'm firmly in the "she's a wood elf" camp. I mean seriously... Look at the pictures. Has anyone read some of the novels? I know they are not the end all be all of the fluff... but when the knight errant survies through his stuff? Welves in action.

At the end of the day - wood elves need to pay attention to dwarves shooting cannons into their forests and an occasional goblins infestation. Otherwise (not going into beastmen because the beastmen are as much the forest as Welves) they have zero outside threats due the Brets being the only other way in other than through the big gigantic mountains. Hence, what better way than use the 'stupid' humans as a shield?

I mean come on... as a group of nobility who is so stuck on honor and the like how do they stand up to the yearly invasion by orion and his wild riders? They don't even strike back. Who could stop that? Hows about the lady stopping it?

Not to sound racist or like a bigot - but most western european descendants cannot tell one asian from another, one arab from another - just like most middle easterners cannot tell one american from another. I know I'm over dramatizing it... but thats the point. The Bret's cannot tell one elf from another due to the infrequent communication between the two. Heck - one of the army books actually discusses the fact that the Wood Elves have kept a spy in the Bretonnian court for centuries now and the Brets have no clue who it is. A scary group of fey enchantments if how they view Athel Loren. So whats better than having a "fey" enchantress to protect us?

What better way to control your outter defenses then see every decision their nobility makes as well as having a huge input in their thought pattern by having them strive to reach the rank of grail knight to meet the enchantress. Who better to take their daughters to learn about magic then the Welves? Heck - the Knight Errant book actually goes so far as to show the human knight that the Elves have young male HUMAN servants at their tables. Hmm... young magic children are taken - girls come back - boys are left in the forest as servants.

All that makes it seem to me that she is clearly nothing more than an Elf - heck - might even be a different elf everytime as the seeing of her is infrequent - Elves live centuries - Who has any idea of what she looks like other than the one time you view her? - All points to the Elves keeping control of a nice defensive bunker to their forest.

Just my opinion and why I think that way...

edit: as to the bret ward save not being useful to the elves - GW doesn't bother to write rules concerning their fluff - just look at the demon book - no god would fight with slan. as they all view him with major distrust - Tz and Kh being friendly on the field? HE11 No! GW's rules do not always follow the fluff.

 

[Willis the Red]

then riddle me this: if my Lord and an wood elf lord have a battle for some reason, and he is part of a giant cataclysmic battle against the wood elves. The wood elf lord uses a magical bow that makes the arrow pierce anything..... or so he thought for as my lord charges ferociously toward him his mighty arrow is magically weened out of the air and he proceeds to be impaled upon his lance and his entrails spill out everywhere. why if the lady is a wood elf, allow such a terrible fate to one of her own kin whilst saving the invader?

 

[Digger]

Why indeed?

The lady doesnt allways pick sides the way mortals do, its more about maintaining balance. Sometimes that means putting your own weapons against your own forces.

If brets and woodelves are picking up their arms to fight eachother, they obviously lost their guidance and are in no need of the lady's approval. Let them balance eachother out until they come to senses. The magic in the war items does not dissipate because they keep showing their faith to the goddess.


ps. lady of the lake a pointy ears?? blasphemy!

 

[8people]

Because they are spirit creatures who frequently grow detached from the trials of mortality.

One of the biggest rumours apparently - I say apparently as this is from someone who has been in the hobby a LONG time and knows a lot of people in the company, but hasn't been given a concrete answer - The Fey Enchantress could be Ariel herself. Personally I doubt that, though she does hide away every Winter.

The elves used to live along the coasts of Brettonia before it was Brettonia and his away in the forests after they were supposed to be called back to Ulthuan, guiding Brettonia could just as well be senitmental rather than simply manipulation. The world is violent and encounters between Brettonia and Asrai are inevitable. Withdrawing assistance from one side or the other is simply dangerous. Plus there is the fact magic items are imbued with magic and don't draw it from any figure.

There is the consolation that Wood Elves and Brettonians don't have obvious reasons to attack one another. Wood Elves stay in their forests, they hardly had their eyes on the lands of other people, they tend to stick to the edges of their woods defending their lands from invaders and despoilers. Brettonians might view the Wood Elves as a threat and arrange a skirmish if Athel Loren decides to encroach on a village, but overall the villagers are superstitous enough they only take fallen branches, leave out bread and milk and keep the children from playing in the woods.

 

[Boskie43]

Well, not to steal an answer to the riddle - but I would agree with Digger on the basis that its all about balance. I truelly find the Welves to be one of the most factionally neutral "race" in the game. The army book actually discuss for every bad deed they do they follow up with a good one (or it implys it... kinda tired right now and headed home to sleep in a minute). About the only chaos/evil they go out of their way to find is the Beastmen character, though the did stop an undead invasion by Kimmler - but again - the didn't go out of their way for the battle.

Here is one such example though of the Welves lord loosing to a bret lord:
Bret King Jules at the tournament of Guyenne jousts with one of the Welve Lords - and totally rocks the Welf of his horse!

Balance is one of the Key beliefs in Welf society. And if you really wanted a good reason why the "lady" at the time might not intervene for the Welves comes down to the fact that each kindred/clan is essentially their own mini kingdom/province in their own right inside the forest - beholden to no one but Ariel and Orion - who if no one has noticed don't exactly interfere or give orders to the Elves to often (Even Orion's hunt uses forest spirits - wild riders - to go slaughter Brets). So one kindred - pissed at another kindred - nudges the brets into moving into the other's area and gives them a small bit of help (ie Ward Save) against their hated enemies.

Also - will everyone please look at page 16 of the Wood Elf book? I didn't want to pull this card so quickly...
Heck - I'll type it here:

Year 1001 of the IC: "The Fay Enchantress is appointed to oversee the Bretonnians. She is also set the task of weeding out those humans who display magical powers but not the skill to control it."

Kinda a big point for this discussion.

 

[Sam51]

Also though not quite as suggestive as page 16 but supportive of the arguments for non the less page 5 of the wood elf army book

"boy children taken from the lands around the forest never destined to grow old, joyfully serve their graceful elven masters"

then page 77 of the bretonnian army book

"these chosen youngsters are taken by the fay enchantresss tp a place beyond time and mortality, to the mysterious otherworld"

both statements coincide perfectly even with the description that the children never grow old. Also the wood elf army book only mentions the boys possibly because the girls are often sent back to bretonnia.

Still it may be a coincidence.

The books are less suggestive about the Lady however. If Ariel was the lady she would be extremely powerful. It must be one thing to imbue some knights with super powered abilities permanently but to give the whole knightly class protection when they pray. Almost puts old Kroak to shame

I do agree though that Ariels not really a wood elf anymore. More like Orion, Aenerion or the Everqueen or even a greater daemon of chaos.

 

[vulgarrhymester]

i prefer to project arthurian themes into my army, so i believe She is none other than the three-fold muse, triple aspect goddess of brittonic and arthurian legend that the army fluff borrows so heavily from. If the army is intended to keep close to the myth, than i cannot see how it can be otherwise, nor how elves even factor in at all. the pointy ears are a coincidence.

 

[vulgarrhymester]

:My grail knights all go West to Avalon when they die! :act-up:

 

[Booth]

What your friend is thinking of is that the Fey Enchantress is indeed and elf, but the Lady of the Lake is a goddess. In the novels of Florin and Lorenzo the Lady of the Lake appears to a character and explains that to the 'cold blooded ones' she was one thing, to the 'fair folk from across the sea' she was another and to the Bretonnians she is the Lady of the Lake. In a few novels and a Role-play book the Fey Enchantress is clearly stated to be an elf.

 

[thelastkoko]

The lady of the lake cannot be an elf, even ariel is not that powerful, she must be a goddess, this would also fit with the clear Arthurian theme of the entire army, there is also no lake in athel loren aside from the mirror pools and one wide river spot, nothing with an island like you see in the picture at the bottom of the bretonnian army book that displays the funeral of Giles

 

[Booth]

What I am going on is actual fluff. The lake is indeed located in Bretonnia, just like you said. The Lady is a Wood Elf sent there to ensure the Bretonnians guard that border of Athel Loren and make sure the Bretonnians do not themselves attack.

 

[thelastkoko]

there is a difference between the lady of the lake and the fay enchantress
fay enchantress= elf that has been proven by fluff
lady of the lake= bretonnian patron godess

 

[Daniel Evans]

an elf?: heresy! heresy!

but seriously tho i think that the lady of the lake is a goddess, but the fey enchantress is an elf sorceress. however, as far as "tricking the brets" goes, she is not, she obviously prefers the brets. she started out as a wood elf and went to protect the brets of her own initiative. (if she wanted to maintain "balance" she would stop the two sides from fighting!)