Librarium Online Forums banner
1 - 20 of 26 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hey guys, just have a quick rules question that popped up when we were playing earlier. My team-mate's Hive Tyrant used the Leech Essence power (the one that lets you regain wounds) and suffered Perils of the Warp. It was double 1's, so the power still went off - however, he lost his last wound. Does the power allow him to regain wounds before being removed as a casualty?
 

·
Senior Member
Joined
·
689 Posts
A tricky question. I don't have the rulebook with me right now, but my guess is that the wound from perils of the warp are applied before the other effects of the spell, so in this case the tyrant would die. However, I'm quite sure that the true chain of events will be easy to concern from the rules on perils of the warp.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
We checked the rules, and unfortunately all it said was something along the lines of 'Note that a psyker who rolls double ones will still use his power, even if he is wounded or killed as a result.' And of course, since the use of the power would result in him regaining wounds...confusion:-\ In the end, we went with the same conclusion you suggest, but I wanted to see if we weren't quite right.
 

·
Senior Member
Joined
·
689 Posts
Perhaps we have to wait for the FAQ to learn the true answer, but I'm quite sure the tyrant will get the wounds from perils before he gains any from the spell.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
288 Posts
Things acting simultaneous is already established by precedence of Initiative. In which case the tyrant looses and gained a wound at the same time, so he stayed alive because he didnt drop to zero afterwords.


Things not acting simultaneous is established by precedence of the shooting phase - you shoot with on unit and then shoot with the next.


If not Simo, then I would view the power as working in that it can wound and potentially kill, but the tyrant being dead he doesnt get any of the wounds.
 

·
Member
Joined
·
650 Posts
Things acting simultaneous is already established by precedence of Initiative. In which case the tyrant looses and gained a wound at the same time, so he stayed alive because he didnt drop to zero afterwords.


Things not acting simultaneous is established by precedence of the shooting phase - you shoot with on unit and then shoot with the next.


If not Simo, then I would view the power as working in that it can wound and potentially kill, but the tyrant being dead he doesnt get any of the wounds.
With the perils roll coming before the unit has to save, I would say the result is that the tyrant dies, but the unit can still lose models from the power since the peril on 1s says specifically that the power still goes off.
 

·
Junior Member
Joined
·
240 Posts
We checked the rules, and unfortunately all it said was something along the lines of 'Note that a psyker who rolls double ones will still use his power, even if he is wounded or killed as a result.' And of course, since the use of the power would result in him regaining wounds...confusion:-\ In the end, we went with the same conclusion you suggest, but I wanted to see if we weren't quite right.
Great question.. I don't have my rule book with me either.. but if the power goes off even if you are dead (i.e. killed by the warp) and then you get wounds back (resurected by the power) you would NOT take the model off the table.

We actually have a precident (sort of) in the FNP rule. It's a failed armor save.. it's a wound.. and then you make a FNP roll which is NOT a save.. it's the ability to ignore a previously inflicted wound that WOULD remove the wounded model. The model's all ready taken a wound that would 'kill' it.

Keep in mind that removing a model from the table (even from POTW) is not necessarily because the model is dead.. it's because it's not capable of fighting any more (incapacitated, wounded too badly, had a huge web of spiny growth cover him etc.) The hive tyrant has an anurism while sucking life (POTW).. falls to one of his 'knees'.. (takes the wound) and then is re-vitalized and stands up charging back to the fray (regaining vitality due to the power working).

I think that if the model isn't removed until after the effect of the power goes off and the power gives you back wounds.. you don't remove the model.

-Dragons
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
32 Posts
What, exactly, does the rulebook say about taking the last wound? (I don't have one in front of me) Meaning, does it say something like, *As soon as* the model loses its last wound it is removed as a casualty, or something similar like, When the model loses its last wound, *immediately* remove it from the table as a casualty... or maybe... *at the end of any phase* in which the model is reduced to 0 wounds, remove it as a casualty (doubtful, because of how combat works)? Because it probably has something to do with the order in which things happen...

Which also begs the question: how did they word the FNP rule that Dragons mentioned? Does FNP step in as an *interrupt* to removing the model from the table... or as an *interrupt* to actually taking the wound (in which case he never REALLY takes the wound to begin with).

If you think of it all as a series of events triggering then the model would (1) reduced to 0 wounds and (2) psychic power goes off. Seems like it could be a matter of determining if the wording of taking the last wound makes the series of events look like this: (1) reduced to 0 wounds, (2) remove as casualty, (3) psychic power goes off... or ... (1) reduced to 0 wounds, (2) psychic power goes off, (3) remove as casualty... because, for the latter, he wouldn't actually have to be removed because he's not at 0 wounds anymore (assuming the power did enough damage).

Just throwing out thoughts. :)
I'd personally really like to think he can live through a perils attack... but, judging from the nature of the game and other familiarities of the system that I can not pinpoint right now, my gut says he's dead. I can see it going either way... and even as an opponent to Tyranid, I would love to see the Tyrant live... because that'd be just plain cool, in my opinion. As if the daemon in the warp is taking the victim's wound as the Tyrant sucks it out of him through the warp... like some sort of 'warp wound tax'. ;)

Warp Daemon: "Ye have to pay me toll to cross me warp!"
 

·
Senior Member
Joined
·
815 Posts
Yeah, quite a tough one. I'm along the lines of thinking that Zarathustra is correct that they both go off together. Plus wound ressolution isn't unti the end of the unit's phase (shooting).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,138 Posts
I belive torden is correct on this one, there are to my knowlege only 2 things in the game that can recover actuall wounds when dead, and both of them arnt actuall dead unitll after the roll (bionics and the necron lords psycliatry i belive its called) in this case the model is dead, period and so cannot recover its wounds.

Also supporting this is this from the BRB

"once a model has lost all its wounds, remove it as a casulalty..." this is instantainious, you dont wait to remove the model till the shot is resolved, it gets removed and the shot is fired at the same time.
 

·
Senior Member
Joined
·
815 Posts
Good point Heirodule. I guess the "grey" area is did the model actually lose all it's wounds or not. IE: 1-1+2 = 1. Or 1-1=0+2=0. In other words, did the effects of perils and the psychic power happen at the same time or different times.

Is there any othe psi power with other armies that can be used to regain wounds we could look at?
 

·
Junior Member
Joined
·
240 Posts
, I would love to see the Tyrant live... because that'd be just plain cool, in my opinion. As if the daemon in the warp is taking the victim's wound as the Tyrant sucks it out of him through the warp... like some sort of 'warp wound tax'. ;)

Warp Daemon: "Ye have to pay me toll to cross me warp!"
Now now.. don't get ahead of yourself here.. Tyranids don't actually HAVE any interaction with the Warp. Their 'perils of the warp' is just too close a contact with the Hive Mind and has NOTHING at all to do with the Corruption and influence of Demons!

Their Psi powers don't originate in the warp at all!

This is a CHAOS FREE ZONE! :D

-Dragons
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
165 Posts
If the wound gain/loss happends at the same time than they should just cancel each other out and therefore he would live. I do like the falling to one knee and getting back up thing though.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,138 Posts
Problem with that Akruze is that nowhere does it say that in the rules at all, even though it does make sense to do so.

Theres also a small bit i forgot to mention, when removing single wound models, the ruling specifically says "Most models have a single wound on its profile, in which case [when wounded] ... one model is IMMEDIATLY removed from the table as a casualty"

Obviously the tyrant isnt a single wound model but thats is still important because of this bit of text later, "When a multi wound model suffers an usaved wound, it loses one wound, from its profile."

Therefore when the tyrant has 1 wound left, it follows the same rules as a single wound model as it would only have 1 wound on its profile and when killed, is removed imediatly.

So the tyrant would indeed die before healing.

Hope that made sense, if theres still some vageries ill try and edit so its better later, but im a bit pushed for time At the Mo.
 

·
Senior Member
Joined
·
823 Posts
Hmm, I think you are reading too much into that. If the 'immediatly' were absolute, then how would FnP work? Can you immagine trying to use that agrument on the table? "oh yea, I know he has Feel No Pain, but see here...it says you are immediatly removed from the table, so the model is not ON the table to get his Feel No Pain."

Also, all shooting happens simultaneously.
 

·
Member
Joined
·
650 Posts
Hmm, I think you are reading too much into that. If the 'immediatly' were absolute, then how would FnP work? Can you immagine trying to use that agrument on the table? "oh yea, I know he has Feel No Pain, but see here...it says you are immediatly removed from the table, so the model is not ON the table to get his Feel No Pain."

Also, all shooting happens simultaneously.
To be precise, all shooting from a single unit happens simultaneously, not from all units on the board. This is one of those that there are arguments from both sides with not clear answer. It will need an official FAQ to resolve.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
470 Posts
Well, PotW happens BECAUSE the creature used a psychic power (aka cause and then effect). If it is a double 6, then the power does not go off and you take a wound. If it is a double 1, then the power does go off and then you take a wound. So, my interpretation is that the tyrant gained a wound from his power, and then lost a wound from PotW. 1+1-1=1
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Wow, thanks for the replies guys, this is great:-D I've checked the rules for FnP, as I think that's probably the best precedent we have, and it says (without quoting, since I'm not sure I'm actually allowed to do that), that if you'd take a wound, roll a dice, and if you roll less than 4, take the wound as normal. Otherwise ignore it. I think the important part here is that the wound isn't actually taken till the dice is rolled, whereas with the Perils test, it happens immediately.

@Slobulous: I think regardless of whether you roll double 6 or double 1, you take the wound first, then the power goes off if it was 1's.
 

·
Junior Member
Joined
·
240 Posts
@Slobulous: I think regardless of whether you roll double 6 or double 1, you take the wound first, then the power goes off if it was 1's.
But it doesn't say that you take the wound first.. when you roll double one it says that the power goes off even if you take a wound or die as a result (emphasis mine). As a result means that it's resultant of using the power.. i.e. it's the POWER that causes it..

The way I read this one is that the power goes off.. you gain the wounds.. and then you lose one FROM USING the power.

Just my $.02 of course... but that's the way it reads to me (now that I'm home and can check my rule book.

-Dragons
 
1 - 20 of 26 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top