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Hive Tyrant
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I had a game the other day versus a Tyranid player as you all know I play Tyranids myself so this was quite annoying.

In the game he decided that he would Deep Strike his Trygons right infront of my Necrons. Like pretty much in base contact (remember deep strike rules allow you to place your model ANYWHERE) There was plenty of space on the board elsewhere but no, he wanted to put it right next to me.

And i'm looking at it like 'What is he thinking? Is he trying to scare me or something? Or does he not know that he's gonna mishap if he lands within 1" of my units.

Low and behold that's exactly what happened his Trygon lands right in place which is 1" of my units and i let him know that he has won himself a Mishap. He argues that Trygons and Drop Pods cannot mishap and there were like 7 other people viewing the game and they ALL claim the same thing that Trygons and Drop Pods cannot mishap.

So apparently a lot of people are UNAWARE or using their rules improperly. So I want to clarify for the rest of us to keep our sanity because this debate ruined my game, all over the ignorance of many others.

Drop Pods/Trygons - They both REDUCE their scatter distance to avoid landing ON TOP of other models or impassible terrain. This is ALL that they do. Nothing more, nothing less.

Mishaps Occur - When landing on top of impassible terrain, on top of enemy models, off the table, or within 1" of an enemy.

Please read the rules carefully now. A trygon and drop pod do NOT ignore the 'within 1" of an enemy. So that if you are landing within 1" you WILL get a mishap. Such as in the case of placing your units within 1" of the enemy to begin with and then rolling a 'hit' on the scatter.

And no the rules are NOT intended otherwise. Why?

Because Mawlocs specifically have rules to avoid this sort of thing even stating that models are PUSHED out of the way after it arrives to avoid being within 1"

And so does the Monolith! clearly stating that it pushes other models away when it arrives.

If GW intended for pods and trygons to ignore it, they would've written it in. And given that there's 2 things in the same codex one that ignores the 1" thing and one that doesn't it's clear that this is simply a difference in their rules and the security of their method of arrival.
 

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Your talking to us as if we are those people and are the culprits. You may want to reword your entire thread, because it can and will provoke alot of aggressive responses.
thanks
antique_nova
 

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Drop pods will reduce their scatter if they land ON something. This is how the codex states it, ON , if they are within 1" they will take mishap as other units would. I'm sure this will be argued but by RAW it is correct, RAI yes they should reduce their scatter if they land within 1" of enemies.

Trygons do take mishaps as normal, Mawlocs have their rule that states they dont, but trygons can.

The Emperor Protects
 

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Off topic:
Meh, I guess I have a think skin and pay little attention to how people format their posts in forums. I don't see his post as aggressive at all nor does it feel like he's pointing figures at this community. Sounds more like a service announcement. haha

On topic:
I agree, people should probably read their codexes more closely. My people are grouping models ability to do things together out of habit or just don't quite understand the rules (can you really blame them we just got a whole new set of rules that we've never used before). I'm sorry to hear that you had a game ruined by this. It happens from time to time, only thing to be sure to do is not let this one experience ruin the rest of your games.
 

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Hive Fleet Pandora
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Actually, the main controversy here is that he isn't even supposed to be able to place the trygon/spore less than 1" away from another model in the first place. Although deepstrike rules say you can place the model anywhere, the model actually has to be legally placeable on the table if you go strictly by RAW. That's why you can't legally place it on impassible terrain, on top of another model or even less than 1" away from another model. But since you guys played it as so, then yes, by RAW he should have mishapped if he landed directly. Appears they were playing it RAI, in which case trygons/spores are not supposed to mishap unless they fall off the edge of the board.
 

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Son of LO
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Unrelated question:

A drop pod counts as an immobile open-topped vehicle, yes? Does that mean that opposing models cannot move within 1'' of it except when assaulting?

It just occurred to me then that my local group has always treated the drop pod as essentially terrain rather than an enemy unit. I can recall several circumstances where it's been placed within 1'' of an enemy model or when enemy models have moved within 1'' of it to get around it. Now that the OP has pointed it out I realised we've been doing the whole thing horribly wrong this entire time...
 

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do you REALLY think a giant tyranid organism, hailing from either orbit or the very ground beneath your feet, would suffer a mishap if he landed in, say a gaurdsmen? its quite clear really I think poodle got it right on, If it redusec distances to not mishap, and It has to be placed in deep-strikeable terrain, how can it mishap?(besides scattering off the board.)
 

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Son of LO
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f it redusec distances to not mishap, and It has to be placed in deep-strikeable terrain, how can it mishap?(besides scattering off the board.)
What jy2 pointed out was that it's actually illegal to deep strike in B2B contact with an enemy unit because in order to deep strike onto a location, the unit must be legally able to be on that location. Since it's illegal to be within 1'' of an enemy model except when assaulting or ramming, the drop pod can't even be placed there and can't mishap to start with.

What was worrying me was how I'd been treating the drop pods after they'd landed - namely, as inanimate scenery rather than as an immobilised vehicle.
 

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Who throws a Pod right on top of an enemy unit anyway? Why not try to put it, say, 1" away to begin with, so on the 1/3 chance you do roll a Hit, you don't have to move the Pod once you've placed it down. What he's doing is basically making it far more likely that he's going to have to move the Pod.
Also, as to your interpretation of the Mycetic Spore/Trygon Mishap rules, read the Spore entry again:
"If, when a Mycetic Spore Deep Strikes, it scatters on top of impassable terrain or another model (friend or foe!), reduce the scatter distance by the minimum required to avoid the obstacle"

Now this tells us 2 things. 1. That what your opponent did was dead wrong, since -he- placed the model within 1" of an enemy, there is no scatter distance to reduce if he rolls a hit. So yes, he would mishap for being a vacuous git and placing his own unit too close.

2. If he did it like a smart person (or just reasonably sapient even) and placed it originally 1" away, and it then scatters onto the enemy, he can then reduce it so it becomes 1" away, "avoiding the obstacle" does not mean simply avoiding the physical barrier, it means avoiding the potential threat to the unit entirely, which would require it being moved to 1" or more away from the enemy unit. I don't think you were actually arguing for this part, but just for clarity.
 

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Actually, the main controversy here is that he isn't even supposed to be able to place the trygon/spore less than 1" away from another model in the first place. Although deepstrike rules say you can place the model anywhere, the model actually has to be legally placeable on the table if you go strictly by RAW.
Unfortunately the deepstrike rules aren't as particular as you're suggesting; they never say the model must be placed "legally" or even more than 1'', it simply says "place the model," (hence the entire Mawloc debate). And the 1'' rule only applies to models performing a move as outlined in the movement section of the rules, which doesn't cover deepstrike. The rules (as imprecise and poorly defined as it is) doesn't prohibit you from "placing" the model right up next to another unit-- the mishap rules simply dictate that you'll be in trouble if you actually land there, hence Akaiyou's whole debate with the people who couldn't be bothered to actually read their own rules.
 

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I think I may be misreading your post, but I definitly agree with Chatawax on this. Are you saying landing within 1" does cause a mishap, reguardless of the rule? In that case I would say yes, the obstacle is the unit AND the 1" bubble around them. Otherwise if you reduced it by the minimum distance needed just to not land on top of them, you'd always end up within 1" of the enemy, suffer a mishap anyway, and the rule would be pointless to have even written (except for impassable terrain). That seems like the same kind of logic as the old "Terminators don't have terminator armor" argument from 4th that wouldn't garner one many friends.

But as to the bit about the trygon, as it happened, I do agree: If you place yourself directly on top of enemy models or within 1" of them and roll a "hit", you would mishap. There is no distance to reduce to a minimum, because you didn't roll a distance.
 

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Hive Tyrant
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Indeed my argument is that you cannot START in a mishap position wether on top or within 1" of enemies and expect to not get a mishap no matter what. You are safe if you scatter away from the positon but if you get a hit or do not get enough distance in your scatter to pull you away then you are screwed for trying to be a douche and starting your deep strike at a mishap position.

And yes the rules do allow people to purposely mishap.

Note that IF you would like for your units to not arrive early in the game it IS possible to purposely mishap and hope to roll a 5-6 to place them back in reserve so this DOES have some tactical sense if you are that desperate to come in on later turns.
 

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Hive Fleet Pandora
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And yes the rules do allow people to purposely mishap.
This seems to be the origin of many an argument. A lot of people will argue that you cannot purposefully mishap. Though the DS rules state that you place 1 model "anywhere on the table", the mechanics of the game say that a model cannot be placed in impassable terrain (with very few exceptions) or on top of another model (or within 1" of it unless assaulting).


--------------- Edit ----------------------

Actually, I have to retract my statement. Only that 1 deep-striking model placed may not be on top of impassable terrain, another model or within 1" of another model. The rest of the unit that is put in concentric rings around the 1st model may still cause the unit to mishap after the scatter roll.
 

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Too Sexy For My Whirlwind
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Unrelated question:

A drop pod counts as an immobile open-topped vehicle, yes? Does that mean that opposing models cannot move within 1'' of it except when assaulting?

It just occurred to me then that my local group has always treated the drop pod as essentially terrain rather than an enemy unit. I can recall several circumstances where it's been placed within 1'' of an enemy model or when enemy models have moved within 1'' of it to get around it. Now that the OP has pointed it out I realised we've been doing the whole thing horribly wrong this entire time...
Just making sure but you are aware that the drop "pod" model is the only part that actually counts as the vehicle, the fins that open outwards won't count for the whole 1" thing. I'm just checking that that isn't the problem your group has had.
 

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I don't see any real problem with treating the Drop Pod as essentially terrain after it's delivered it's payload. Considering it can't move, is not sentient, and only a limited amount of ranged attack ability, treating it as terrain makes sense really. Just remember they count for kill points though. Mycetic Spores however I think should continue to be considered an actual unit, since they are living, react to assaults, and have a certain level of cognitive ability.
 

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Hive Fleet Pandora
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I don't see any real problem with treating the Drop Pod as essentially terrain after it's delivered it's payload. Considering it can't move, is not sentient, and only a limited amount of ranged attack ability, treating it as terrain makes sense really. Just remember they count for kill points though. Mycetic Spores however I think should continue to be considered an actual unit, since they are living, react to assaults, and have a certain level of cognitive ability.
You can't treat it as terrain because it is an immobilised vehicle just as you can't treat an immobilised land raider as terrain until you wreck it. It can still shoot and contest an objective (if it was dropped near one).
 

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Well of course in those circumstances you would treat it as what it is, what I was getting at is if they aren't going to affect the game anymore, or at least in a very small way (shooting their storm bolter once a turn for example) then treating them as terrain in general would make things less complicated.
 

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Well of course in those circumstances you would treat it as what it is, what I was getting at is if they aren't going to affect the game anymore, or at least in a very small way (shooting their storm bolter once a turn for example) then treating them as terrain in general would make things less complicated.
But you also commented on making another immobile deep striking model not count as terrain because it is a living thing. This would be a disadvantage to marine players using drop pods and an advantage to nid players using spores. I can see where you're coming from, the pod is a hunk of metal the other think is moving, fleshy, there may be more inside... But for simplicity and balance purposes what you are suggesting is unreasonable.

The Emperor Protects
 

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The spore does not count as terrain because it is a UNIT and you can't move less than 1'' from it unless assaulting. Then it is a monstruos creature and it will crunch you to pieces!!!
 

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yup, both the spore and the DP are an imobilized transport vehicle that cannot be re-mounted. You cannot get within 1" of the hull except to assualt it. Also, it counts a as a kill point once you kill it and can contest those objectives it landed within 3 inches of. :)
 
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