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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have just returned from local tournament, and I strongly think about exchanging one squad of veteran CCW+melta+fist marines for strong librarian (Veil,Might,Jump,Plasma pistol,Familiar,halo) The cost is about same, he is much faster, could be hidden even when there is not enough terrain in the table and he is killing machine in CC

I put three full squads of marines (JP+Chaplain, 2xinfiltrating veterans against two squads of 10 lasplas + strong Librarian) I lost everything except one veteran sgt and one ccw veteran eventually, but he stopped my main killing force with his Librarian and few shooty marines for five turns. I have lost objectives and game because other units terrible rolls but that librarian make me thnk about power of full unit vs. power of one character...

What you think about it? Is librarian really better than squad of ten veteran marines?
 

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vet marines? heck ya!
assault marines? no!

btw you can't really compare the two bc vets are much more shooty than assault IMO unless i am misinformed... an additional assaulty HQ shouldn't come before an assault squad, however.

better replacement for Vets- Scouts. That's right. Scouts. much more versatile weaponry, etc, etc.
 

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LO Oldie
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last time i used my JP librarian with veil of time he went throught a 5 man chaos bike squad and a 5 man nurgle terminator squad while only takig two wounds!
 

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Problem with a Librarian, even a particularly well equipped one, is that he loses to a ten man marine squad with a Power Fist armed sargent pretty much every time. He just can't kill every guy before that power fist smushes him.

My advice, take a ten man assault squad with a power fist sargeant. 265 points (including two plasma pistols) and it is pretty much the best close combat available to space marines.
 

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He does get pretty cut down by a hidden fist, but you can solve that by giving him an adamantine mantle. Thats what I did And If hes only losing 1 wound a turn he can survive three rounds and decimate alot of enemy troops.
 

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Too Sexy For My Whirlwind
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Indeed, if its his turn and he has a 4++ re-rollable save then the PF becomes less deadly. Not harmless, but less deadly. A Librarian with a AM and a Combat shield is probably better though(once he's in CC).
 

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what about on a bike?

razz said:
I strongly think about exchanging one squad of veteran CCW+melta+fist marines for strong librarian (Veil,Might,Jump,Plasma pistol,Familiar,halo) The cost is about same, he is much faster, could be hidden even when there is not enough terrain in the table and he is killing machine in CC
I would think a Librarian on a bike with Veil, Artificer Armour, CS and Familiar would be something to look at instead if yer thinking about replacing a squad with a tooled up ind char. Consider this: this setup would be 180pts while yours comes to 210pts (if my math is wrong, sorry, kinda late:blush: ) Not a big difference of course but it could mean two extra marines or term honours and wargear on one of your sergeants if you don't have it already. More importantly it gives you much more mobility and survivability than an JP with the turboboost. Plus, you get a better shooting opportunity. IMHO, I'm not a big fan of might. My dice hate me as it is with regular rolls, even more for random bonuses.

Any thoughts on this? I'm actually gonna use a Lib set up this way for my Blood Ravens.
 

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I think a the Librarian you described razz is better than the veteran squad,so id say go for it if you want to.

Col.Angus said:
I would think a Librarian on a bike with Veil, AM, CS and Familiar would be something to look at instead if yer thinking about replacing a squad with a tooled up ind char. Consider this: this setup would be 195pts while yours comes to 210pts (if not, sorry, kinda late ) Not a big difference of course but it could mean an extra marine or term honours on one of your sergeants if you don't have it already. More importantly it gives you much more mobility and survivability than an JP with the turboboost. Plus, you get a better shooting opportunity. IMHO, I'm not a big fan of might. My dice hate me as it is with regular rolls, even more for random bonuses.

Any thoughts on this? I'm actually gonna use a Lib set up this way for my Blood Ravens.
Yeah Librarians on bikes can be extremly deadly if used and configured right.The best use of Librarians on a bike is when you go up against a low leadership army like tau,then you give him Fear of the Darkness and give him artificer armour.The you just turbo boost him all over the place making things run,and then eventually run off the table,such a funny and really cruel tactic :lol:

Cheers,
Tycho
 

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A single librarian is a fairly bad choice. Since, veil of time stops working in the opponents turn, a fast unit like a bike squad or a couple of LST could easily come up and assasinate him.

And other armies would be far better against him, like hords, or shooty armies. Shooty armies,will simply blast him with fast moving units combined with great firepower. Where hords will gladly accept a charge from a librarian.

30 orcs will turn your librarain into a trophy on a banner pole in no time.
 

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ForgedInTheFurnaceOfWar said:
A single librarian is a fairly bad choice. Since, veil of time stops working in the opponents turn, a fast unit like a bike squad or a couple of LST could easily come up and assasinate him.
That is certainly a disadvantage in the case of veil. You are definitely sacrificing surviveability for mobility when he mounts up as opposed to taking a comm squad. However, the idea is that he is on a bike with turbo boost (resulting in the best save possible), somewhat offsetting shooting from fast-movers and large shooty forces in your next point. Fast-movers really don't need to be that big a deal since they can't shoot at him if they match his speed. Important point: once he's in hth, forget about shooting at him.

Shooting is another matter. Melta and higher strength weapons can hurt though as he would be pasted, but I point back to the save he would get if he guns the engine. +2 inv have got to be the coolest things ever. I've seen them work for Dark Eldar Lords time and time again. Also refer back to the important point. Your whole army's strength is nullified by him simply being in hth. If you forecast your turns accurately, you should really only be exposed to fire 1, maybe two turns

And other armies would be far better against him, like hords, or shooty armies. Shooty armies,will simply blast him with fast moving units combined with great firepower. Where hords will gladly accept a charge from a librarian.
By no means am I going to charge 30 orks with ONE model, that would be silly.:wacko: However, holding him back while said horde army pounds down the field accepting the blessing of the Emperor's Firepower from the rest of my force, then charge him into stragglers, Big Nasties, etc. That's a different story. :D

Besides, I wouldn't want to assault 30 orks with an assault squad either, since that is what the fellow was inquiring about replacing with a lone librarian in the first place.

I wanna stress the overall benefit of having a Librarian on a bike. He gives you a surprising amount of versatility from a single model (albeit an expensive model.) Consider this: if you're keen about second turn charges he would be the best surefire option (as opposed to deepstrike or infiltrate). Especially if you can pinpoint a vulnerable, high priority target. Alternatively, he can hang back on the flanks to do as I mentioned previously.

I absolutely love librarians.:wub: IMHO, their rules actually match their fluff to a "T". They are great at disruption and can be consistent game-winners, especially in the lower point games, where people easily make mistakes in choosing the HQ forces by spending too many points on 'em.

But of course, in the end, it's up to the dice.
 

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Col. Angus said:
They are great at disruption and can be consistent game-winners, especially in the lower point games, where people easily make mistakes in choosing the HQ forces by spending too many points on 'em.
Lol you are contridicting yourself here mate.
Yeah libbys on bikes are pretty nasty and can be equipped to take on nearly any task under the sun.The only bad thing about them is there points cost,which can jump right up.
But the best thing about them to me is the versatility with them which is enormous.
Plus they are fun to convert :yes:

Cheers,
Tycho
 

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Ghost of LO
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shooting is another matter. Melta and higher strength weapons can hurt though as he would be pasted, but I point back to the save he would get if he guns the engine. +2 inv have got to be the coolest things ever.
This is the wargear i was responding to.

(Veil,Might,Jump,Plasma pistol,Familiar,halo)
A librarin on bike is a great choice, so long as he also has a bike squad.

A 2+ inverable save dies pretty easily to the following unit:

3 LSTs, 18 AC + 3 HBs

3 rends + 6 normal wounds scored from AC cannon. 5 more wounds from heavy bolters.

It takes 18 wounds to kill a 2+ inverable save unit with 3, but this is only 14, however, the librarin has but 1 wound left. Another tactical squad, or simply the assault phase will finish him off.

Not terrably impessive either way. But there are diffinatly better units out there.
 

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Think about it though, what are you getting for your points.

You can have 3 wounds and able to be insta killed, with about 5 attacks and some cool powers
OR
you can have 10 wounds, no insta kill, 20 attacks, 30 on the charge, be able to hold table quarters, choice of multiple weapons.

Characters are rarely a better choice than squads point for point (above comparing librarian and assault squad).
 

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buzzin_yoof said:
Characters are rarely a better choice than squads point for point (above comparing librarian and assault squad).
Hmmm that isnt really true.
Characters abilities are superior than ordinary squads.Thats the whole point if them.They lead your army.
Take a 7 man tactical squad which is 105 points

Then put it up against a captain with power weapon and terminator honours...who do you think will win???

Cheers,
Tycho
 

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It is really true IMO for the reasons I stated before. Instead of the 7 man tac squad what about a 5 man aquad with veteran and power fist....

Point for point characters cannot match basic troops in general, especially with SMs whose basic troops are fantastic. Characters are worthwhile if you apply them in the right place and at the right time, but I don't think I would go for a single model instead of a 10 man squad.
 

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Um.. actually, if 7 tactical marines would assault a captain with a PW and TH It would (by averages) end with a victory for the squad (disregarding leadership rolls):
after round 5 the captain would have dealt 5 wounds leaving two marines
after round 5 the squad would have dealt 2,17 wounds leaving the captain with -0,17 wounds...

But of course we all know that dice do not obey the rules of statistics and probability...
/
R
 

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Everyone is ignoring the fact that you can combine the various units mentioned here.

Instead of a librarian by himself, or a fully-equipped tactical squad by themselves, how 'bout a librarian with a jump pack in a small assault squad, or a librarian with a bike in a ... well, you get the picture.

Characters are good, but they have weaknesses. Units are good, but they have weaknesses. Rather than buy an uber-unit, or a kill-everything character, buy a decent character and a decent unit, and put them together.

Stating the obvious, but whatever,

Sabre
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Still dont know ...

Librarian on bike is cool and powerfull idea too, I like it :) But I still dont know if it is better than marine squad for my army.

On 1500 points i play:

Reclusiach (PP,TermH,frag) 9 command CCW+2Melta, Powerfist (Infiltrate)
10 Veterans, Meltagun, Powerfist, (infiltrate)
Dreadnought
5xscouts with ML+4Sniper (for pinning squads trying to run away)
5x same scouts
10x Assault jump pack 2xPP, powerfist
Tornado HB+AC
7xDevastators (4ML)
Whirlwind

Tactics is to hit opponent on one flank with infiltration units and maybe with jump squad, annihilate him and destroy his support after that. Problem is that those two infiltrating CC unit are to slow and fast or smart opponent could outmaneuvre them. Fast and small librarian could do better job, same with deep strike termies (maybe assault termies, teleport homer and hide them behind CC??)

Im thinking about not using veterans and add librarian or Termie squad...
 

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I think you guys should take a chapter out of the heretic Daemon Prince book (as we like to tool up our guys). I am also going to make a Librarian in the near future, that is why I have looked here. "eh hem" (clears throat) "Go for the cheapest, most effective set up, as the whole of an army is great than the parts, ALWAYS." Rarely do Daemon Prince get tooled to get STR 8, as for the hidden power first, WYSWYG should allow to note all squads with or without a Fist, so don't attack them or have a squad with you.

Codicier (use this setup if you don't face hidden fist much)
(Veil, Jump, Plasma Pistol, Familiar, Halo) 180pts

Then add the Mantle if need be. Remember (to those that play against Chaos) you can never out-equip a Daemon Prince, so focus on numbers. I played this one guy with his 2 195Chaplin (4000pt game so doubled up charted) he attack my DP 170pts, thinking it was a big threat. (shooting it would have better), anyways my Dreadaxe chop up the first and one wound on the other before kicking the bucket. DP don't get the pleasure of a 4+ save, so hit him with power weapons (don't bother with P. Fist, can't instant kill him).
 
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