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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi couple of questions :-

1. Does a thunder Hammer double your strength and lower initiative to 1?

2. Can you use one lightning claw (in this instance with a strome shield in other hand) and still take the re-roll wound bonus from a lightning claw? Also if you were using this combo (shield and claw) your initative wouldnt be affected right?
 

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Ogre Tyrant
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Hi there,

Correct, you can use a single lightning claw with a storm sheild. Re-roll to wound and counts as a power weapon and you get a 3+ invulnerable.

Thunderhammers double your strength (unless I am mistaken) and decrease your initiative to 1... however... they can also stun opponents and force them to strike simultaneously with you in the next combat phase if you wound with it. Rather useful against a deamon prince or some such creature!
 

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Ogre Tyrant
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i haven't actually got my codex to hand right now...

But I remember that assault terminators can only take a Pair of Lightning claws or swap BOTH of them for a Thunderhammer and a Storm sheild. No combos.

The way you'd get a claw and sheild would be with a commander.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Ah ok ;) werll the shield and hammer is awesome too so I happy with that set up - last night I had 7 with shileds and hammers and 3 with claws - that squad killed 8 bezerkers in one phase and then in next phase took out khan who was in same unit as the zerkers i just minced :p devestation
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You can do the same on Vanguard, which is an expensive but nice combination. Of course nobody uses Vanguard competatively, I'm probably their biggest fan on the forums and I only use them for a giggle :D
I sue the sternguard they are awesome also - are vanguard not great or something? (why people dont use competitively)
 

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The Future
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I sue the sternguard they are awesome also - are vanguard not great or something? (why people dont use competitively)[/QUOTE]
They're of limited use - their special rule isn't that great unless you have a locator beacon nearby, and against low-armour infantry regular assault marines do just as nicely.

However they are the ONLY unit that can get jump packs and all be equipped with power weapons, and the 2 attacks each as standard is pretty handy. I use them mainly as an escort for Shrike when I'm running a Raven Guard army. 1x Relic Blade/SS, 1x TH/SS, 1x Powerfist/SS, 1x LC/SS, 1xLC/SS + meltabombs dishes out a lot of punishment and can survive pretty much anything, they're just a LOT of points!
 

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With vanguard, having to pay for the Unit AND their packs add up. If we did not have to pay for their jump packs (since they dont really give anything extra) they would be golden.

The vanguard at Elite killers pure and simple. Now if we could get them just a little cheaper I would be happy
 

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Ogre Tyrant
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Yeah thats what I thought was silly, if you wanted to take a foot veteran squad with 4 pairs of lightning claws and a power weapon, they work out alot MORE points than the same combo of weapons with TERMINATOR ARMOUR.

GW messed that up.

I think veteran squads should have got a points break on the weapons they can choose, otherwise when someone fires an AP3 weapon and kills one because they have no invulnerable save, you've just lost 50 or so points, when for less points you could have had deep striking terminators with the same weapons getting a 2+ save against that same shot, and if its AP2 they still have their 5+ invulnerable.

The reason people don't play vanguard is they're just too many points, and other units do the job better for less.

Sternguard are a different kettle of fish... :D

But seriously, assault termies and a land raider redeemer, or 2 5 man units of vanguard... I know which i'm taking...
 

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GW apparently didn't do enough playtesting with Vanguard, since they couldn't see the glaring problem of cost. Being a powergamer myself, I considered them, spent about a week trying to find a way to shove them into my lists, then gave up.

I get the feeling come 6th ed., Vanguards and Devastators will get changed points wise (Long Fangs are probably the beta for 6th ed Devastators, and GWs on its own with Vanguard though, though dropping them to the same cost as sternguard w/ jump packs would be a good start).

Also, the Thunderfire Cannon will probably get some sort of change. Maybe make it slightly weaker for increased protection or something. Right now they're just too easy to pop.

Also, just remember that with one lightning claw you won't get the extra attack no matter what else your other weapon is. If you do outfit somebody with lightning claws and storm shields, their niche is power weapon / AP3-2-1 hunters. Take hits, get in close and cut them to shreds. Unfortunatly not too useful in some games, but that's what they would be good for in that setup.
 

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Ogre Tyrant
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sounds like a certain chaotic fantasy army they didn't playtest enough...... lol.

at least they're not broken in that way!
 

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The basic Vanguard unit is +4 points over a normal Space Marine. 4 points to get 2 extra attacks. That seems pretty good. Where the vanguard are over priced is in the upgrades. Sternguard get combo weapons for +5 points/model, when the same weapons cost an IC +15 points a model. Vanguard should get melee weapons at similarly reduced costs. +5 points for a power sword, maybe +10 for a power fist, etc. The Jump packs are also overpriced. Normal Assault Marines get a jump back for a mere +2 points over the cost of a basic Marine, when a Vanguard has to pay +10? This makes no sense, maybe make the vanguard jump packs cost +5.

At these costs, a vanguard model with a power sword and jump pack would cost 30 points, that seems much more reasonable.

As they stand now, the only way I can see to use them is with as no upgrades, or maybe just upgrade the sergeant to a relic blade or power fist. 10 models with with a relic blade would cost 240 points, for 30 attacks, 40 on the charge. Just don't use them against MCs or CC specialists with a higher I and attacks that ignore armor. That's what your Terminators are for.
 

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Ogre Tyrant
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maybe we'll get a chapter approved article on it... or something like what FOrgeworld released when apocalypse came out. THey gave out a free PDF (its still there) to update your Imperial armour 1 book, and the listings in the PDF permanently replaced the rules in imperial armour - including for tournaments.

I'd like something like that for the vanguard - but odds on it doesn't happen.
 

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The Uncivil Servent
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I think Blargg makes the best point Vangaurd squads without upgrades are actually pretty good i run one with my Chaplin in a razorback with maybe a power fist and a power weapon and it's a pretty good unit for going into combat.
 

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Vanguards

A kitted out squad of vanguard vets only really have a place in Apocalypse in their current format, even more so when given jumpacks...Now that you can't sweeping advance like in the old rules one charge and their bullet magnets and without an invulnerable save their stay on the table is probably a short one!!!

The cheaper points cost for power weapons, jumpacks and so on is a great idea but the storm shields warrant a reasonably high points cost. This is reminiscent of the different points cost for upgrades for single and multiple wound models.

In Apocalypse they'd be nice to perform a heroic intervention on a titan with their powerfists and thunderhammers though!!!
 

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Where's the bits?

Not to change topics from the vanguard - but still on topic of TH and LC.... I've recently started a Salamanders chapter, and as we all know with Vulkan He'stan leading the Sally's on the field all TH are mastercrafted (in addition to all meltas, flamers and multi-meltas being twin-linked)

So...

In desperation I'm trying to field as much of my army as I can with TH's - but the bits are either WAY overpriced or ridiculously hard to find in stock..... or in the case of purchasing from GW directly there are the single pose, metal bits and I'm hoping for some more diverse figure poses.

Any help?
 

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Where's the bits?

Not to change topics from the vanguard - but still on topic of TH and LC.... I've recently started a Salamanders chapter, and as we all know with Vulkan He'stan leading the Sally's on the field all TH are mastercrafted (in addition to all meltas, flamers and multi-meltas being twin-linked)

So...

In desperation I'm trying to field as much of my army as I can with TH's - but the bits are either WAY overpriced or ridiculously hard to find in stock..... or in the case of purchasing from GW directly there are the single pose, metal bits and I'm hoping for some more diverse figure poses.

Any help?
 

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Ogre Tyrant
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My friend you are in luck!

I was listening to the 40k radio podcast the other day and they recommended chapterhousestudios.com for bits... I went on there and they actually have Salamander/dragon themed bits for space marines. Like shoulderpads, hammers, storm shields etc.

Its from the US, but the shipping is really quite reasonable too :) and because its from the US the prices are pretty nice too.

have a look :) i'll let you know how mine are when they arrive.

Waddy
 

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My friend you are in luck!

I was listening to the 40k radio podcast the other day and they recommended chapterhousestudios.com for bits... I went on there and they actually have Salamander/dragon themed bits for space marines. Like shoulderpads, hammers, storm shields etc.

Its from the US, but the shipping is really quite reasonable too :) and because its from the US the prices are pretty nice too.

have a look :) i'll let you know how mine are when they arrive.

Waddy

THAT... IS... AWSOME!!!

Rep to you my friend for that find! SO much love there for us Sally players.... and now, my Salamanders shall be fluffy in the extreme.
 
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