Librarium Online Forums banner
1 - 20 of 20 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
11 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Had a unit of 9 Lootas. Seems a bit silly and nitpicky but it made a difference in my game

To calculate the Heavy D3 we generally roll a D6 and divide by 2 (round up) but i want to know how you calculate the rate of fire? Do you,
1/ roll one D6 for the unit and this represents how many shots each model makes
2/ roll a D6 for each model separately to see how many shots it fires.

I am not very good with the math hammer but it strikes me that statistically you will get more shots from employing option 2. My opponent stated that it must be done by option 1 because obviously he wanted less shots. for the three turns they were active today using option 1 I rolled 1, 1, 3 which meant that my lootas all fired 1 shot each for 2 turns then 2 shots for their last turn.

This may seem a stupid question but I feel a little hard done by because from a fluff point of view each model's gun would fire differently representing the randomness of ork mechanics...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
170 Posts
I just can't see why everyone on this forum raves about them so much. They on average generate 3 shots every two turns of which they hit 1 in 3.

Today I used two units of Lootas and one unit of 3 kannons.

The kannons managed to kill a fire prism and a wraithlord! but my two units of lootas managed to shake a fire prism once and miss everything else!

in the words of Grax...you really are better off with grots ... (And their big gunz)

this is the fourth game I have played with orks and the same seems to happen. Lootas on paper seem great but for me they lack reliability in practice and never earn back their points.

does anyone agree with me or have I just been super unlucky?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12 Posts
Mine are very reliable because I get tons of fives to hits. I've killed a squad of termies on the first turn with 30 shots, and killed an avatar in two turns in a tournament before he even touched me....then they could also die from a desperate guy with orbital bombardment first turn....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
44 Posts
The thing is they are scary for the opposing play they just need to be dumped in the middle of your side and it's a gun line over half the board, then if you have Kommandos, it forces them to move off that table edge too. The are a paper tiger but at the same time should be spending their first turn coverd by a big mek, this means they can either try to stop your 225 point unit with a 5+ save while you wheeling towards them or shoot for the BW try and pop them only to have the lootas laying cover fire, their point is to shoot for stuff they _will_ hurt not try to take things down ;)

(I like burnas in a wagon a bit more than them tbh but the long range pow pow is always lovely for the borad controll and splitting their forces, which for orks are two essential things.
 

·
Torn ACL FTL
Joined
·
4,404 Posts
How many do you use? You generally need lots to get the best returns. They're pricey, but very little can put out that much firepower reliably. Big Gunz, Koptaz and Buggies are your other great sources of medium S shooting that can nail transports.
 

·
Murder
Joined
·
3,492 Posts
I used zzzap guns the other day and took out 2 dark eldar raiders the first turn. It was game over from there basically.

Essentially you need lootas to be getting 5/6 results for their ROF just for each of them to hit once. I don't think they are worth it all that much as the average zzzap gun roll is 7 for strength and they hit on 4 instead of 5 as well as the added AP2 great for the odd marine or terminator.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12 Posts
I used zzzap guns the other day and took out 2 dark eldar raiders the first turn. It was game over from there basically.

Essentially you need lootas to be getting 5/6 results for their ROF just for each of them to hit once. I don't think they are worth it all that much as the average zzzap gun roll is 7 for strength and they hit on 4 instead of 5 as well as the added AP2 great for the odd marine or terminator.
But that is also a single shot weapon that may not yield any results if missed. I generally get like half...because I'm lucky. If you're not popping transports, u mow down infantry to help out your boys, and wound on 2's.

Zapp gun may hit on 4, but like I said, one shot,..and the strength is always variable
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
614 Posts
Zzap guns don't roll to hit, which is pretty good. Still, there's always the chance they'll blow up or roll a 4 or 5 for strength. Destroying Dark Eldar raiders isn't really a feat either, I think I could blow one up by flicking a paper clip at the right place. I use my Lootas in this way:

Put them in a ruin (preferably with 3 storys) on the second story, and join them with a Big Mek with Shokk Attack Gun on the third story (so that if he rolls snake eyes he doesn't take out the Lootas as well). Probably going to be told this is a really bad idea but it's worked for me more times than I care to count.
I also use them for psychological warfare, in a unit of 10 there is a possibility of them getting out 30 strength 7 shots against the unit of your choice. Yeah they probably won't get the full 30, and you can almost guarantee they won't hit with all of them, but that's not what your opponent is thinking. He'll be thinking "That unit can potentially put out 30 strength 7 hits a turn, which is an average of 10 shots against my tank, well...I better move it round this way instead..."

Lootas are my 2nd favourite unit behind Burnas, simply because they've taken out 3 Dark Eldar Ravagers, 2 Leman Russ Battle Tanks, various terminator squads, and probably some other stuff I can't remember.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
134 Posts
Let's compare the shooting of a unit of shoota boys (widely acknowledged as one of the most point-efficient choices ever!) and a unit of lootas.

A full unit of shoota boys is 30 models, each with Assault 2, so you get 60 shots. Ork BS of 2 means you're looking at an average of 20 hits. Performance against MEQ is 10 wounds, 3.33 kills. (Actually it's a bit less because you'll PROBABLY have a PK nob in there. Let's leave that aside for a moment.)

Let's take that 180 points and spend it on lootas. That will get you 15 of 'em. Deffguns have Heavy D3, so on average that's 30 shots. Ork shooting yields only 10 hits, but you wound on 2+, so 8 wounds and change. Against MEQ, 2.77 kills per turn.

So wait a second, the shootas out-shoot the lootas! Why take lootas, then? Part of it is because the above is a highly-idealized scenario. A mob of 30 shootas is big; if the entire mob is within 24" of a target, you definitely have a few elements within 18", which means your opponent is going to have the wind up - one WAAAAGH and their forces are in melee, where they probably perform significantly worse point for point than shootas. Your shootas are guaranteed not to shoot at the same target repeatedly because of that.

The lootas have 48" range. That's not just longer, that's beyond reprisal for most infantry in the game. It also comprises a huge chunk of the table, so the enemy is unlikely to be able to maneuver such that the lootas don't have something to shoot. So while the shootas won't be shooting every turn, the lootas probably won't stop until they run out of targets (or the opponent drops a pie plate on them, but the shootas don't like those much either!)

The lootas also have more versatility. That same loota unit, with its average of 10 S7 hits, is a definite threat to vehicles. AV12 will be rolling damage multiple times a turn, and AV13 isn't safe; the only thing that lootas can't scratch is a Land Raider, a Monolith, or the front armor on an MBT. That means lootas deny light

Against troops with less armor than MEQ, lootas have a significant advantage - AP4 vs AP6. That means that against half the armies out there, the lootas will significantly out-perform the shootas. The higher strength means that the lootas will do better against high-toughness targets - T4 and T5 are the same to lootas, but cost the shootas a third of their wounds.

The downside to lootas is that they are highly variable. Now, all ork units are variable in that they have a high miss rate - so better-than-average shooting for an ork unit represents a significant increase in hits. Lootas have that variability plus the random number of shots. If they're Heavy 1 for that turn, they're not going to do a lot of wounds at all (unless they're shooting AV10 or 11 armor, or units with less than 3+ armor saves, etc.) But if they're Heavy 3, they're going to perform 50% -better- than average, give or take normal ork variability. So sometimes loota shooting will stink, to be sure, especially small units of lootas. But sometimes a big unit of lootas will roll Heavy 3, open up, and tear the ever-living stuffin' out of whatever is down-range.

Of course, people tend to bring a lot of lootas, precisely because of this. And enemies who have experienced deffgun fire are likely to make a special effort to knock out those lootas, so they're going to attract pie plates. And while you can (and should) set them up in cover, making them more resilient than a unit of boyz caught in the open, they're not so much more resilient that you won't still lose more points in the average bombardment. Then again, any arty which is scratching your lootas isn't tearing into the front ranks of your boyz, and there aren't a lot of armies that can hold off unscathed units of orks in C&C.

Let's compare zzzap guns as well. They're cheap - for the 180 points above, you can take 2 full batteries, so 6 zzzap guns. 36" range, so they split the difference between the shootas and the lootas for range - you may lose a turn moving them up. If we give them the "ideal targets in range" scenario that the other two units got, then they're firing six shots per turn, 3 hits, average strength T7 with 6-8 likely. It's tough to calculate wounds with the random strength, but likely two and a bit against MEQs, and no armor saves. Against vehicles, they're better performers, but are even less reliable than the lootas; a quarter of the time, your shots are going to have strength so low that they won't even pop a trukk. The "crew shaken" result is nice, and you can desperation-fire at Land Raiders or Monoliths and hope you get lucky. On the downside, you've burned two full Heavy Support choices to get there, and really you should spend a few extra points to get spare crew and a Runtherd (or maybe just some ammo grots, to help make it a bit more reliable?) Less versatile, a hog on the FOC, and even though they get the special "crew stunned" rule for glancing/penetrating hits, you can't reliably hit the tough armor, and anything LESS tough the lootas would have turned into Swiss cheese, forget stunning.

Finally, don't underestimate the psychological factor. Many opponents will have had the experience of a lucky round of loota fire absolutely wrecking one of their units. Those opponents are going to put a higher priority on silencing the lootas than their point value strictly dictates. If this sucks units out of position, hey, bonus.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
170 Posts
This is a valid series of points and I agree completely however against MEQ'S they suck. also they might shoot more than a unit of shoota boys but they are less versatile and in all games i have played with them they have not yet made back their points and the statement of 15 lootas doing an average of 30 shots is arguably accurate but misleading.

You have a 1 in 3 chance of them doin 1, 2 or 3 shots each. this will work out to 2 shots on average per turn over the game but if you roll two turns of 1 shot and one turn of 3 shots they're useless and usually an opponent has wised up and moved out of los byt turn 3 if not sooner or shot em. I think for 180 points you are better off with 2 units of kannons with ammo runts. More consistent with a re-roll and S8 hits.

I haven't given up on lootas but I think mech armies shouldn't use them.

I am going to try a unit of 9 lootas positioned behind 3 kannons giving them the grot based cover save or if i'm really cheeky maybe deploy them together intermingled.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Sounds like a good idea combining lootas with kannons. exactly what I do!

this debate is interesting but only really becomes valid at 1500 points or over. Under 1500 points i think that your always better off with more boyz and a kommando unit with snikrot! or nob bikerz!
over 2k points then 2 squads of lootas is a pretty good idea bercause with most opponents there will be plenty of AV10 - AV12 vehicles that need to be popped and they're great at that but if your up against AV14 then good luck but i got nothing but a biker boss
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
614 Posts
I reckon it really depends on your expectations for the squad, because for me, my Kannons are doing a vastly different job on the field when I field them. Lootas for the 'ard stuff, Kannons for the super 'ard stuff. Of course my usual opponents are Dark Eldar (tissue paper ships!) and Imperial Guard, so I don't need that real high strength hitting power. I deal with his battle tanks in a slightly different way 'tis all, a more "bait and trap" maneuver rather than the plain shoot 'n' pray.
 

·
Junior Member
Joined
·
340 Posts
Zzap guns don't roll to hit, which is pretty good. Still, there's always the chance they'll blow up or roll a 4 or 5 for strength.

Lootas are my 2nd favourite unit behind Burnas, simply because they've taken out 3 Dark Eldar Ravagers, 2 Leman Russ Battle Tanks, various terminator squads, and probably some other stuff I can't remember.

I'm pretty sure they must roll to hit, since they have BS 3, but if you somewhere in the rules where it says they don't, by all means let me know, and I'll start using them asap!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
134 Posts
On top of that, the Errata/FAQ mentions that zzzap guns roll for their strength "before they roll to hit". They wouldn't do that if they didn't roll to hit, right? (Dangers of over-parsing language in the rules aside...)
 

·
Murder
Joined
·
3,492 Posts
Zzap guns don't roll to hit, which is pretty good. Still, there's always the chance they'll blow up or roll a 4 or 5 for strength. Destroying Dark Eldar raiders isn't really a feat either, I think I could blow one up by flicking a paper clip at the right place. I use my Lootas in this way:
They don't roll to hit? why is this? I always roll to hit with them because it seems to easy to knock out big tanks if you just roll a 10 for st. Dark eldar raiders arn't that strong yes but being 7 is the average the dice can make because of the amount of ways it can be made with 2 dice I feel confident in piercing through weak things more often. I always have the deff coptas too if need be. I'm just not big on lootas as a whole.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
614 Posts
Aye, you roll to hit with Zzap guns. The rulebook probably (I don't know why) references the 4th edition Ork codex which says they don't roll to hit, but the most recent codex doesn't specify one way or the other, just saying roll 2d6 for strength and if it's above 10 one of the gretchin crew is killed but the shot goes off at strength 10. Well, these certainly make it less attractive to me, my army is based around not rolling to hit, or if I have to, rolling a lot of dice.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
170 Posts
Kannons are better than Zzap gunz cos they cost 10pts extra for on average 1pt of strength less. For the extra cost of a zzap you could get 3 ammo runts for your kannons

for 225 you could get 15 lootas
but
for 207 you can get 9 kannons with 3 ammo runts per squadron. Obviously thats 3 HQ sots but footsloggers that don't use Kans might be worth a try!

For anti armor kannons are better bang fer yer buck
For Meq's Kannons are better bang fer yer buck
For the paper tiger effect its arguable but only an idiot wouldn't soil themselves when facing 9 kannons that can re roll to hit
 
1 - 20 of 20 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top