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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hey, are we allowed to use the vehicle upgrage Power of the machine spirit?

I was reading a SM codex and stumbled on it. It also says that LR & LRC come standerd with the upgrade. so do we get it? did GW fudge it up in the rules book?
any rules lawers out there want to feild this one?:glare:
 

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Simple Green.
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The SM LR(C)s are the same as ours. Meaning our point cost for the LRC is 10 pts more now, but we do get Machine Spirit if it's already on the tank. We cannot take SM upgrades but anything in the LR(C) description is ours too.

~ In short, ours (LR/C) is theirs (LR/C) but theirs (upgrades) is not ours ~
 

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Oh, not this again.
This has been debated in numerous threads, but here's two that devote themselves to the issue entirely:
Rules Smackdown -- C: DH vs C: SM
Trouble with the codex.

The general consensus is that we get to follow all the rules for the Land Raider and Land Raider Crusader as presented in Codex: Space Marines, but we continue to pay the same costs as listed in Codex: Daemonhunters. Discussion can be found in the above links.

cyan said:
Hey, are we allowed to use the vehicle upgrage Power of the machine spirit?
This upgrade is not generally available to Daemonhunters vehicles because it isn't listed in our codex. But it does come standard as part of the Land Raider and Land Raider Crusader, both the dedicated transport option and the "Grey Knight" heavy support versions.
 

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number6 said:
Oh, not this again.
This has been debated in numerous threads, but here's two that devote themselves to the issue entirely:
Rules Smackdown -- C: DH vs C: SM
Trouble with the codex.

The general consensus is that we get to follow all the rules for the Land Raider and Land Raider Crusader as presented in Codex: Space Marines, but we continue to pay the same costs as listed in Codex: Daemonhunters. Discussion can be found in the above links.


This upgrade is not generally available to Daemonhunters vehicles because it isn't listed in our codex. But it does come standard as part of the Land Raider and Land Raider Crusader, both the dedicated transport option and the "Grey Knight" heavy support versions.

You're both wrong.

We use the unit exactly as liste in our codex, because a GK LR or LRC is completely different than a reg LR or LRC. We do hownever use the new Assault Cannon rules as an AC is an AC. Baiscally if it has the same name, use the new rules, if it has an even slightly differnet name, use the old rules. This is figured seperately for units, weapons, and wargear. The one common sense objection is hurrican bolters, which follor the old rules cuz they're described under the unti description, rather than having a seperate gear entry.

It's a little case of GW emergent behavior, simply rules causing really complicated interpretations.

Anyway, DH won't have machine spirit unless you induct marines or Inq takes one as a transport.
 

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Sir_Prometheus said:
You're both wrong.

We use the unit exactly as liste in our codex, because a GK LR or LRC is completely different than a reg LR or LRC. We do hownever use the new Assault Cannon rules as an AC is an AC. Baiscally if it has the same name, use the new rules, if it has an even slightly differnet name, use the old rules. This is figured seperately for units, weapons, and wargear. The one common sense objection is hurrican bolters, which follor the old rules cuz they're described under the unti description, rather than having a seperate gear entry.
I don't want to play "S/He said, S/He said" again, so I'll make this my final post on the subject. (You can thank me later.) ;)

Suffice it to say that I disagree, and that it is you, Sir_Prometheus, who are wrong. ;)

I think this based on the GW rulez boyz post that is referenced numerous times -- and I think even linked to -- in the threads I provided links to. And besides...

Sir_Prometheus said:
It's a little case of GW emergent behavior, simply rules causing really complicated interpretations.
Not if you accept the GW post as canon. In which case, complicated interpretations are replaced by a simple blanket statement. Simplicity is good; I'm on board for simplicity.

Sir_Prometheus said:
Anyway, DH won't have machine spirit unless you induct marines or Inq takes one as a transport.
Now, see, this just makes no sense whatsoever. (I touched on this subject in the "Trouble with codex" thread.) How could it be that the Imperium -- even just sticking with the Inquisition -- would be manufacturing LRs and LRCs in different configurations -- only SUBTLY different, mind you -- while continuing to give them the same names? (This especially holds for "Hurricane Bolters", as you yourself point out.)

I say it couldn't be. It defies all rational explanation. And besides, accepting this causes complication. I invoke Occam's Razor here.
 

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Yes, there are also "official" answers that echo my positions, as well. Most of these answers are given 17-year olds working for GW at minmum wage. Mine is the most consistently echoed.

The GK LR is not reg LR anymore than GK dread is a reg Dread (we wish, but at least we get WS5)
 

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Sir_Prometheus said:
Yes, there are also "official" answers that echo my positions, as well. Most of these answers are given 17-year olds working for GW at minmum wage. Mine is the most consistently echoed.

The GK LR is not reg LR anymore than GK dread is a reg Dread (we wish, but at least we get WS5)
Well, would you care to cite your sources then?
 

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Sir_Prometheus said:
We had a whole argument about, drew on for days, pages and pages of posts. You can search for it, many sources were cited.
No need. I provided a link to both relevant threads already. The one I assume you are referring to -- the one that you participated in -- was the "Trouble with codex" thread.

There were a couple of others who supported your position in that thread, but no citations of support were ever made. Conversely, there appear to be at least two distinct posts from GW, both of them cited, and at least one of them from Pete Haines, that support the opposite position.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
OK theeen..

So what I am seeing is that YES infact my LRC comes standard with the machine spirit like a Bigmac comes with cheese.

:w00t: I got to go buy me a LRC!

hey do most of you gus that use LRC, use it to Spear head your troops?
 

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The quasi-official post on GW message boards by the 4th Ed designers (that I posted in one of the threads) specifically says that GK LR/LRC use the new SM codex rules. Whether that is the true intent (there were a lot of items listed in the question) or not. It can, and has been, argued both ways. With a quasi-official post from a designer, I have sided that the GKLR/GKLRC use the rules from the SM codex as the "more" correct ruling at this time. There is nothing about changing the costs or using the whole SM entry. Thus, the prices remain the same from the DH codex, only the rules change. GW has admitted before that certain items, although the same between codexes, will have different prices. Specifically, I know the DH thunderhammer was intentionally 5 points cheaper than the SM/IG codex versions.

So, you either use the SM rules, or the DH rules.

SM rules you get machine spirit and the LRC AC is rending, but lose the hurricane bolter special rule.

DH codex, you do not have the machine spirit nor new AC rules, but keep the hurricane bolters rule.

It's your choice, really, but as I said, I think using the SM codex rules is "more" correct.
 

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Simple Green.
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cyan said:
OK theeen..

So what I am seeing is that YES infact my LRC comes standard with the machine spirit like a Bigmac comes with cheese.

:w00t: I got to go buy me a LRC!

hey do most of you gus that use LRC, use it to Spear head your troops?

I use a LRC and it works, and helps much.....Also, no it's nothing like a Bigmac because without the cheese Bigmac still takes good....with a LRC, if you drop the Assault C-(cheese), it loses its flavor. It's more like a Wild Cherry Pepsi with ice, no matter how much soda or ice you take out (as long as you have some left), it still is cool and tastes good. :)
 

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Aaaaaggghhh!!!

Not another pointless argument about the same damn thing.

There are other threads about this.

They hold the answers.

We can only show you the threads, you have to shut the hell up and use the search function yourself.

Can a mod lock this please?
 

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Simple Green.
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Nick it's actually been pretty much cleared so you can stop freaking out :shifty:
 

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Simple Green.
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It's been cleared in the sense that there are already other threads discussing this so ignore this thread and just use the search function :). That's what I meant by cleared.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
yeah, I checked the search under " machine spirit" and i didnt really see anyhting much.
 

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cyan said:
yeah, I checked the search under " machine spirit" and i didnt really see anyhting much.
Yeah, that's cos the other threads are most likely under different names such as "LRC question' or something akin to that. I'm sure the machine spirit has been mentioned in so many other threads that it severely dilutes the pool of threads that actually contain the info you need.

Anyway, so what did I say about letting this thread die?;)

No more thread necromancy please, the answers are out there.
 
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