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....coookies...
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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Welcome!
Afternoon gentlemen, gentleladies, and Mr Dee,

I've been working on a few different things over the last couple of years, I've got a new job, a new Tau army, three children, started a business, crashed my go kart, the list goes on... you get the idea...

Recently I've had a hankering for a forum on my screen and a proper army in my cabinet. Enough with the 'we want to be Eldar' Tau wannabes. I'm talking Space Marines baby! It's high time I cast off the shackles of togetherness and greater good and returned to where I started, stuffed full of alien organs, pumped with drugs, armoured within and without, oh yeah, and collecting Space Marines...

In the games room I have a box stuffed full of space marines and assorted bits. I still have a wedge of sprues left over from the Battle Company box I bought a few years back. (Yep, the best boxed set ever released by GW, I should have bought 3!) and I'm thinking its high time I sat down with a reasonable plan for all of these bags of bits and turned them into an army worth fielding. This is where I think you can help me, and perhaps win something too!

Now I'm a big infantry fan, if it has a 3+ save and carries a bolter, it's welcome in my house. I know that's not always the way to win a game with marines, but it warms my heart to lay rank upon rank of power armoured marines on the fields of battle. Especially when I have more marines than my opponent has Orks...

The Challenge:
So, with Codex: Space Marines in hand, or on your iPad, bend your formidable will to the following problems.

1 - How many power armoured (3+sv) marines can you squeeze into 2,000 points?
2 - Cutting one or two for upgrades, how do you think I should build my army of footsloggers?

What do you win?

Well it's not all about winning, you can post your answers, ideas, suggestions, and thoughts and we'll have a good debate about footslogging marines in 6th.

Winning something is almost as easy. There are two prizes. For all entries the primary detachment must be from Codex: Space Marines. You may include any units you wish, only 3+ save models with the infantry type count towards the army head count. Secondary attachments may be from any other codex which can ally with loyalist marines.

Most Marines Prize:
The first post in this thread which contains a legal 2,000pt army list, built with the current codex, including the highest number of power armoured marines at 2,000 points wins a miniature of my choice, P&P free anywhere in the world. This category is open until 31 October so think carefully!

Best Footslogging List Prize
On the 31st October I will choose my favourite 2,000 point all-comers list from those submitted. Winner receives a Tau Sunshark or model of equivalent value, posted P&P free, anywhere in the world.

I will then start a project thread where I will track my progress buying, building, and painting the army to completion. This isn't theory hammer people. This is prize-winning Warhammer 40k!
 

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HQ 1 librarean

Troops 10 tac marines

10 tac marines

10 tac marines

10 tac marines

10 tac marines

10 tac marines

10 devastators

10 devastators

10 devastators

5 assault marines

allies 1 librarean

10 tac marines

10 tac marines

10 devastators

6 assault marines

total number 133 1997pts

or if 2 force org charts allowed

1 librarean

10 tac marines

10 tac marines

10 tac marines

10 tac marines

10 tac marines

10 tac marines

10 tac marines

10 tac marines

10 tac marines

10 tac marines

10 tac marines

10 tac marines

10 devastators

8 devastators



total number 139 1997pts

I have not posted points for individual units as i think this would breach forum rules. If you wish i can message them to you.
 

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Double Force Org.

HQ:
Libby w/Auspex
Libby

Troops:
10x Tac Marines
10x Tac Marines
10x Tac Marines
10x Tac Marines
10x Tac Marines
10x Tac Marines
10x Tac Marines
10x Tac Marines
10x Tac Marines
10x Tac Marines
10x Tac Marines
10x Tac Marines

Heavy Support
8x Devastators
5x Devastators

=1997 points and 135 Marines

Basically the same as the double force org that Collingwood posted, but it needs a HQ for the 2nd FOC.
 

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....coookies...
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1,753 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I have not posted points for individual units as i think this would breach forum rules. If you wish i can message them to you.
No need to share points values, all that's needed is a verifiable list.

Interesting that both Dracus and yourself have gone for Codex: Space Marines as the source of the second force org chart.
 

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Clarification. When you talk about power-armored infantry, does that include jump and bike Marines? And Terminators? When you say max infantry, you want a viable list rather than simple bodycount? Are we talking about only Vanilla Marines or any MEQ Codex?
 

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For the sake of fluff, I give you a full battle company.

Captain
Power sword, primarchs wrath - 125

3x 10 man Tac Squad
Plasma, missile launcher, flakk, combi plasma. - 570

3x 10 man Tac Squad
Flamer, las cannon. - 495

2x 10 man Assault Squad
2 flamer, vet sgt w/ power sword - 410

2x 10 man Devestator Squad
4 plasma cannon - 400

1 force org chart, no allies. 100 marines, and you can make a single battle company. Id recommend Ultramarines for tactics. You have plenty of each of the 3 doctrines, and all can benefit. Feel free to fire plasma cannons AND assault on one turn. Might be worth it for s&g.

Imperial Fists is also a close second. Its a lot of bolters. You are bound to roll a few ones, but can reroll them. Tank hunting plasma cannons just doesn't seem that usefull.

Raven guard is a close third. Your assault marines get gangster. The other marines get stealth for a turn, and the option to scout/outflank. Surprise boltguns on the side of the table is less fantastic than other things, but it should hold.

Feel free to swap the cap w/ a master of the forge to fortify a ruin and rock a 2+ cover save for turn 1.

Also look into iron hands, 6+ FNP on 100 marines is pretty hard core. You would have no vehicles to benefit from IWND.

White Scars are great, but you have no bikes. Hit and run is actually savage for gunlines though. They charge, you overwatch, you hop out at end of turn, then shoot them again. Bonus points for being the coolest chapter ever.

Salamanders and Templars do you zero benefit.

Either way, if you want all power armored foot guys, flee from heldrakes.
 

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....coookies...
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1,753 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Good questions

Clarification. When you talk about power-armored infantry, does that include jump and bike Marines? And Terminators? When you say max infantry, you want a viable list rather than simple bodycount? Are we talking about only Vanilla Marines or any MEQ Codex?
The primary detachment must be from codex Space Marines. Secondary may be from any other codex which can ally with codex: Space Marines.

To count towards the goal models must have the infantry model type. Jump are in, bikes are out. However, lists may include any choices in the codex as infantry always require support.
 

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Double Clutching Weasel
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Let's see, list option 1, version 1:

HQ-
Master of the Forge w/ Conversion Beamer

Elite-
Tactical Termies x 5 w/ Assault Cannon, Chainfist x1
Vanguard Veterans x5 w/ Stormshield & Lightning Claw Vet Sergeant, Powerfist Vet, Stormshield Vet, Lightning Claw Vet, Chainsword Vet

Troops-
Tactical Squad x 10 w/ Combi-plasma Sergeant, Plasmagun, Heavy Bolter
Tactical Squad x 10 w/ Combi-plasma Sergeant, Plasmagun, Heavy Bolter
Tactical Squad x 10 w/ Bolter Sergeant, Flamer, Flakk Missile Launcher
Tactical Squad x 10 w/ Bolter Sergeant, Flamer, Flakk Missile Launcher

Fast-
Assault Squad x 10 w/ Lightning Claw & Meltabomb Vet Sergeant, Flamer x 2

Heavy-
Devastator Squad x 5 w/ Bolter Sergeant, Flakk Missile Launchers x 4
Devastator Squad x 10 w/ Bolter Sergeant, Plasma Cannon x 2, Lascannon x 2
Thunderfire Cannon w/ Techmarine

Fortifications-
Aegis Defense Line w/ Quadgun

Points: 2000 exactly
Body Count: 70x3+ Saves, 7x2+ Saves

Strategy - Best to go with Imperial Fists (my first choice) or Ultramarines (runner up) for a Chapter Tactic. The main issue I see with this style of list (power armoured foot slogging) is your lack of mobility and lack of anti-air. The goal then is to make a gunline, with a few deep striking elements (terminators and jump infantry) to provide pressure on your opponent. Careful placement of the deep-strikers is key, as they will be mostly unsupported. If you can find an empty flank out of LOS in your opponent's back line, that would be ideal. The techmarine provides some anti-aegis support, with his barrage weapon. Flakk Dev's are a small unit, just because of price, but the 10 man Dev squad is intended to be combat squaded so you can specialize their weapons, and have some ablative wounds to protect the heavies.

This list was based with Imperial Fists chapter tactics in mind, so we're looking to maximize Bolter re-rolls and Tank Hunter on Dev's. It also is designed with K's "Many Eggs, Many Baskets" mindset (ie: I'm bad at spam), which means that it provides variety, but sucks against gimmick lists (4 riptides/heldrakes would ruin your day).

Were you to want to increase bodies, the Vanguard Vets and Tactical Termies can both be swapped out for regular Assault Marines, and the Thunderfire Cannon could potentially be more devastators. The Master of the Forge could also be a Plain-Jane Librarian if you prefer 3+ saves, as he would still provide decent buffs or could just be on Quad-gun duty.

Also, might I also ask how you feel about Drop Pods? It provides a lot more mobility so you're not restricted to always castling up, and opens up other units like Sternguard which are a great MEQ unit.
 

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OK, here is an entry for a "best footslogging list". Imperial Fists with Dark Angel Allies.

Double Force org with Double Allies!

Primary Detachment (Imperial Fists)

HQ:
Librarian
Librarian

Troops:
10x Tac Marines w/Meltagun, Heavy Bolter
10x Tac Marines w/Meltagun, Heavy Bolter
10x Tac Marines w/Meltagun, Heavy Bolter
10x Tac Marines w/Meltagun, Heavy Bolter

Heavy Support:
10x Devastators w/4x Missile Launchers, Flakk Missiles
10x Devastators w/4x Missile Launchers, Flakk Missiles
10x Devastators w/4x Missile Launchers, Flakk Missiles

Allies: (Dark Angels)

HQ:
Librarian w/Power Field Generator
Librarian w/Power Field Generator

Troops:
10x Tac Marines w/Meltagun, Heavy Bolter
10x Tac Marines w/Meltagun, Heavy Bolter

=2000 on the dot! and 94 Bodies

In this list your primary detachment gets to re-roll 1s to-hit with the bolters and Heavy Bolters and you also get Tank Hunter Missiles with Flakk in your Heavy Support! You have the option of Combat Squading the Dev squads to give you 6 units with 2 Tank Hunting missile launcher each with flakk. The Libbys can provide all kinds of support depending on what powers you roll for. The DA Librarians can give you Prescience that the normal "Vanilla" libbys don't have access to and also provide the Invul save with the PFG! The 4 libbys also provide a better Deny the Witch roll to your army if you spread them out.

You get 12 Missiles, 6 Meltaguns and 6 Heavy Bolters for Anti-vehicle and a ton of bolter/heavy bolter shots for anti-horde. I think this would be a pretty well rounded list with the amount of bolter shots, anti-vehicle and anti-air shots you have as well as a large number of bodies looks like a good mix.
 

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3+ Armor and carries a bolter, you say?

1 Force Org:

Librarian

10 tacticals

10 tacticals

10 tacticals

10 tacticals

10 tacticals

10 tacticals

10 devastators

10 devastators

10 devastators

Cannoness

20 sisters

20 sisters

10 dominion sisters

142 models, 2000 points even.
 

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3+ Armor and carries a bolter, you say? 1 Force Org: Librarian 10 tacticals 10 tacticals 10 tacticals 10 tacticals 10 tacticals 10 tacticals 10 devastators 10 devastators 10 devastators Cannoness 20 sisters 20 sisters 10 dominion sisters 142 models, 2000 points even.
How are you going to deal with anything other than infantry though? The only option with this list is to hope the librarian gets an anti tank power... Which isn't exactly the best thing to bank on. Would be fun, sure. If you and your opponent agreed to not having any armor or monstrous creatures. But that's about it.

Edit. Sorry, didn't realize the real purpose was was head count. Lol I kinda zoomed through and didn't pay attention. My bad....
 

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Edit. Sorry, didn't realize the real purpose was was head count. Lol I kinda zoomed through and didn't pay attention. My bad....
No worries! It is a kinda weird little thought experiment anyways. I'm in the process of building a mostly infantry Ultramarine army, but when I say "mostly" I'm implying 2 razorbacks and like 9 drop pods. This one was just for the OP's contest on the off chance he'll accept non-marine 3+/bolter. ^_^
 

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....coookies...
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Discussion Starter · #15 · (Edited)
Also, might I also ask how you feel about Drop Pods? It provides a lot more mobility so you're not restricted to always castling up, and opens up other units like Sternguard which are a great MEQ unit.
Good question!

For the second part of this challenge anything goes, and that includes rhinos, non-meq models, and drop pods. What I'm really trying to test here is how many meqs do you have to give up to cover off the infantry weaknesses. In this case your list says I have to give up about sixty marines to buy the other things I need (130 or so, down to 70 MEQs).

It's a high price, the trick is working out if it's worth it. I'd suggest that other non-MEQ choice can add a lot, but that must be balanced with the reduction in MEQ headcount in this challenge. Since rhinos and drop pods generally enhance what each MEQ can do I'm pretty open to them.

One of the previous entries set out a battle company worth of marines. That has a nice feel to it, I suppose the issue is how can you overcome some of the challenges and limitations faced by infantry heavy forces. There's a real pressure on upgrading the weapons and equipment, mobility, and support options. I didn't say this challenge was easy!
 

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....coookies...
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Discussion Starter · #16 · (Edited)
3+ Armour and carries a bolter, you say?

1 Force Org:

Librarian

10 tacticals
10 tacticals
10 tacticals
10 tacticals
10 tacticals
10 tacticals

10 devastators
10 devastators
10 devastators

Cannoness
20 sisters
20 sisters
10 dominion sisters

142 models, 2000 points even.
Love it, nice work! Going for Sisters of Battle is a nice twist, and isn't something I'd thought of. That said, it works and would look pretty good on the tabletop too. Just a smidge over 14 points a model. Could this be the headcount winner?
 

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Double Clutching Weasel
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Good question!

For the second part of this challenge anything goes, and that includes rhinos, non-meq models, and drop pods. What I'm really trying to test here is how many meqs do you have to give up to cover off the infantry weaknesses. In this case your list says I have to give up about sixty marines to buy the other things I need (130 or so, down to 70 MEQs).

It's a high price, the trick is working out if it's worth it. I'd suggest that other non-MEQ choice can add a lot, but that must be balanced with the reduction in MEQ headcount in this challenge. Since rhinos and drop pods generally enhance what each MEQ can do I'm pretty open to them.

One of the previous entries set out a battle company worth of marines. That has a nice feel to it, I suppose the issue is how can you overcome some of the challenges and limitations faced by infantry heavy forces. There's a real pressure on upgrading the weapons and equipment, mobility, and support options. I didn't say this challenge was easy!
70 was probably on the low side, as things like the Vanguard Vets could easily be swapped for normal Assault Marines, who will perform much the same function. Same with the Tactical Termies, more or less (though I think a few 2+ saves are good things to have). Were I to keep much of the bones of my above-mentioned list, I could easily get into the 80's on body count (perhaps 90's at a stretch) without sacrificing it's "all comers" vibe. I just have a weakness for variety, so tend to want to pick stupid things like tactical termies.

Also, if I get a little time, I'll try throwing together a Black Templar Crusade. You can still do a mass of bolters, and crusader (fleet) helps to give some mobility that will actually help keep up with transports. You're out in the open, so heldrakes will still ruin your day, but that's the case with any footslogging list. Biggest issue is always the air-game and what you intend to do about that. And to be honest, it's not something I've quite sorted out beyond spamming flyers myself.
 

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An entry for the second part of the challenge.

Sicarius
Assault Terminator x10, all TH/SS
[Tactical Squad x10, plasma gun, missile launcher] x5
Tactical Squad x10, combi-melta, meltagun, heavy bolter, Drop Pod
Whirlwind
Firestorm Redoubt

1,955 Points Total

I don't see how anybody can make a Tactical Squad-spam list without Sicarius. He lets you combat-squad with no leadership troubles in addition to buffing a Tactical squad and being a solid beatstick. The Firestorm Redoubt is a one-stop solution to skyfire/intercept for players who don't want to field aircraft. That and its ability to provide solid cover to both the Whirlwind and a combat squad on the battlement makes it a good choice for this list. The Whirlwind helps against hordes and doubles as a "sniper" unit. The Terminators counter elites (which Tactical squads usually struggle against) and will soak up a massive amount of anti-MEQ firepower (which is why none of them have lightning claws). The Pod squad is designed to combat squad. One half double-meltas a high-value target and the other half runs away, which forces the enemy to hunt them down. The HB gives three snap shots on the go and is reasonable against both min-maxed squads and rear AV. Ultramarine doctrines provide on-demand buffing. Lastly, I deliberately gave the five Tac squads rather expensive kit and left 45 points available so you can play with their loadouts. There's no fun in running five identically-equipped squads.

What makes this list good isn't just the model count; it's all the options your infantry have to play with. Do you go with a Many Small Units tactic or field big, durable squads? Do you keep Sicarius safe in the Redoubt for his leadership or have him stalk the front line looking for a challenge? Do you use the Pod Squad as a suicide unit, land it on the flank to distract the enemy, reinforce it with the "Heroes"-buffed Tactical or send the Pod down empty to speedbump the enemy Land Raider or plug a gap between terrain pieces? Do you walk the Assault Terminators as one squad to beat down Monstrous Creatures or split them and deepstrike to surround the enemy on Turn 2? There's no reason to play this list the same way twice.
 

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....coookies...
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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Flyers have certainly added a new dimension to the game, invalidating some of the common tools from 5th edition and requiring players to broaden their approach to all-comers. Not least because some armies can bring so many of them, flyer spam isn't as easy to deal with as armour or body spam.

I find myself almost nostalgic for the days of AV14, AV13, Horde, 2+ Save and 3+ save... Oh wait it's always been complicated. :)

I think it is a big thumbs up for the codex that there are so many things to consider here. It's not that long ago that many of the books only really allowed for one, perhaps two, sensible solutions. If you didn't take unit x three times you were doomed. Now we have some legitimate choices which can be compared to each other. While there may be a winner in terms of total mathematical efficacy, the other units/builds aren't so far behind as to be useless.

Given that there's a prize at stake it seems only fair to say that I find myself gravitating towards the lists with around 90-100 marines in them. I am going to have to build and play with the list once this is wrapped up too, so I've got to 'buy it'. I mention that last part because it's worth pointing out that I appreciate the rationales that are being offered here. Understanding the approach you've taken to the list you present is really useful.

Sicarius, for example, offers some powerful abilities and army wide options. Setting out how and why you think those are useful makes a lot of sense. Another thing I like about this book is that apart from the generic captains I don't think any of the HQ choices are duds. I think that's a remarkable achievement on the part of GW. Any one of the special characters has a place in their own army build. I'm not sure there are many other codexes where you can say that? There are nearly always two or three characters that you would never take for reasons other than fluff.

Do you think one drop pod is enough?
 

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Double Clutching Weasel
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Given that there's a prize at stake it seems only fair to say that I find myself gravitating towards the lists with around 90-100 marines in them. I am going to have to build and play with the list once this is wrapped up too, so I've got to 'buy it'. I mention that last part because it's worth pointing out that I appreciate the rationales that are being offered here. Understanding the approach you've taken to the list you present is really useful.
Just speaking for myself, I'm enjoying the challenge more than anything. I'd personally rather have rep than prizes.

Just sayin'. ;)
 
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