Mandrakes: Power Level

4505 Views 22 Replies 14 Participants Last post by Malkieth, Jun 13, 2011

karantalsis

Discussion Starter · Jan 25, 2011

This is part of a group of polls on how powerful various units are to help me in the writing of my new tactica. I am not going to post my opinions straight away as I don't want to influence people.

This poll is about the Elite choice Mandrakes. To get a better handle on what the voting scale represents you can read it in its entirety Here

1 - 20 of 23 Posts

The_Outsider

· #2 · Jan 26, 2011

I've voted a 4 after debating between it and a 3.

Mandrakes are truly astounding for the price you pay and are one of the few sources of a permanent invulnerable save within the codex. Their S4 as base means they stack exceptionally well with power from pain (as they generate wounds without the use of special weapons).

This coupled with infiltrate and fleet makes a turn 1 charge a very real possibility, even if they do not stealth means a unit hiding in cover fairly difficult to shift.

Perhaos the most important aspect is how all these things come together - they are one of the few true hunter-killer units in the codex (and, by extension, the game) which gives them a huge amount of strategic and tactical options that sadly few people will get.

Mandrakes really are one of those units that look nothing special on paper but shine when used, most people will write them off which says more for the sad state of the 40k community in general than mandrakes specifically.

GodsWitness

· #3 · Jan 27, 2011

You do make some very interesting points outsider. I'm beginning to notice it more and more but it's like my buddy who has been playing for 15yrs always tells me, "Less is More."

nigelboyette

· #4 · Jan 27, 2011

you know when i first saw them i condemed them because in my eyes they were a poor choice compared to other elite units, however they have started to grow on me they are decent at combat ( decent mind you not great but can hold there own against a banged up unit) and have a great shooting weapon which helps them to keep enemies from engaging them in an assult. it seems however that they do require a PT to get the most out of there potential.

Seraphimsfall

· #5 · Jan 27, 2011

Mandrakes make tau and imperial guard freak out, and they even give space marines a run for their money. Today I had a tau player throw a fair amount of fire power at these guys, whilst ignoring the raiders running up his other flank and my mandrakes still survived til combat. A definite 4 for me almost a 5.

Serbi

· #6 · Jan 28, 2011 (Edited)

I can easily say these guys are the worst unit in the codex.

Their save is poor, they can't shoot starting out, they can't take a vehicle, their melee is worse than Wracks and they cost more points. They're not particularly good at anything really. They just have infiltrate. If they had a pain token starting out, maybe you could plop them in cover and blast things that walk near them. But because they don't have that, and you can't infiltrate with a haemy. They're just bad.

Seraphimsfall

· #7 · Jan 29, 2011

Serbi said:
I can easily say these guys are the worst unit in the codex.

Their save is poor, they can't shoot starting out, they can't take a vehicle, their melee is worse than Wracks and they cost more points. They're not particularly good at anything really. They just have infiltrate. If they had a pain token starting out, maybe you could plop them in cover and blast things that walk near them. But because they don't have that, and you can't infiltrate with a haemy. They're just bad.

Despite their save being only a 5+ they get stealth which gives them a 3+ cover save or a 2+ cover save if they go to ground. Yes they best used against imperial guard or tau who are fairly weak in CC. But the do fairly well if you used outflank and get a charge on space marines, especially devastator squads. They have move through cover so they can get into cover fairly easily. You do need to pick the right first target, but after that it's no problem. Just curious, have you used them before Serbi?

The_Outsider

· #8 · Jan 29, 2011

Psst, against shooting wracks are tougher than all other DE infantry bar incubi, grotesques and possibly wracks as they actually get a save against nearly every ranged weapon in the game.

Like I said before, people who declare them crap I wil lsay with a fairly high degree of certainty are those who would never use them to their strengths anyway. Look at them i na vacuum and yes, mandrakes do not stand out. However look at how they function within the context of the DE army and how it all works together as one cohesive force rather than "lol i r pro, if i take 1 good unit and naother good unit clearly they will be twice as good, huzzah!" which leads to retardedly built forces as you have no cohesion beyond 1+1 which is terrible for use in an army that has so many advantages that cannot be put on paper.

Dilandau

· #9 · Jan 29, 2011

I had Mandrakes in my army starting out but after several games dropped them. I never found them worth the points since we played random scenarios (so no idea if Infiltrate will be of use in the game or not) and the times I did use them even when assaulting what I would consider soft targets (Tau, guard, etc) the fact the unit does not have Plasma grenades meant that a fair amount of the unit was getting hacked up before being able to do anything.

Serbi

· #10 · Jan 29, 2011

Dilandau said:
I had Mandrakes in my army starting out but after several games dropped them. I never found them worth the points since we played random scenarios (so no idea if Infiltrate will be of use in the game or not) and the times I did use them even when assaulting what I would consider soft targets (Tau, guard, etc) the fact the unit does not have Plasma grenades meant that a fair amount of the unit was getting hacked up before being able to do anything.

This is basically what I'm saying here. They have move through cover sure, but any player worth their salt will keep their vulnerable shooty units in terrain somehow, which negates their initiative.

And the cover save is fine, if you plan on shooting, which they can't do. If you're goal with them is to sit in cover and hopefully scare an opponent, then fine, take these guys in droves. If I fought you, I wouldn't waste the shots.

So, let's say you have a squad of 10 guys. On the charge against marines that'd be 30 attacks, 15 hits, 7 wounds, and marines would take 3.5 wounds.
If they have a squad of 10 chaos marines, they'd lose 1.2 guys, attack back with 18 attacks, causing 9 hits, 6 wounds, and you lose 4 guys.

Against normal marines, you'd lose 2 guys. Which means you still are (on average) losing combat, even if you have the charge and your target is not in cover.

Compare against a squad of 5 incubi, which would get 15 attacks, 10 hits, 5 wounds (and kills).
Which would leave the chaos marines with 10 attacks, 5 hits, 3 wounds, and 1 kill.
Normal marines would cause 1.5 wounds and kill 0.5 models.

The incubi squad would cost 40 pts less, or you can drop it in a raider and have it cost 20 pts more and have much greaty mobility as well as an extra dark lance to toss around.

And being that both of these squads are elites and can not be used to capture objectives, this seems like a fair unit to compare it to.

And if you're going to compare what a squad can do to tau or IG, anything in the codex can do well against tau and IG in cc.

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Seraphimsfall

· #11 · Jan 29, 2011

Serbi said:
This is basically what I'm saying here. They have move through cover sure, but any player worth their salt will keep their vulnerable shooty units in terrain somehow, which negates their initiative.

And the cover save is fine, if you plan on shooting, which they can't do. If you're goal with them is to sit in cover and hopefully scare an opponent, then fine, take these guys in droves. If I fought you, I wouldn't waste the shots.

So, let's say you have a squad of 10 guys. On the charge against marines that'd be 30 attacks, 15 hits, 7 wounds, and marines would take 3.5 wounds.
If they have a squad of 10 chaos marines, they'd lose 1.2 guys, attack back with 18 attacks, causing 9 hits, 6 wounds, and you lose 4 guys.

Against normal marines, you'd lose 2 guys. Which means you still are (on average) losing combat, even if you have the charge and your target is not in cover.

Compare against a squad of 5 incubi, which would get 15 attacks, 10 hits, 5 wounds (and kills).
Which would leave the chaos marines with 10 attacks, 5 hits, 3 wounds, and 1 kill.
Normal marines would cause 1.5 wounds and kill 0.5 models.

The incubi squad would cost 40 pts less, or you can drop it in a raider and have it cost 20 pts more and have much greaty mobility as well as an extra dark lance to toss around.

And being that both of these squads are elites and can not be used to capture objectives, this seems like a fair unit to compare it to.

And if you're going to compare what a squad can do to tau or IG, anything in the codex can do well against tau and IG in cc.

Firstly I don't take these guys in droves, I only take 7(5pts cheaper than 5 incubi, but who really cares?). I don't use them to scare an opponent but if I can put them in his way I will. Though they do occasionally scare an opponent which is always a plus.

Yes, chaos marines will slaughter mandrakes in CC unless supported by another unit. Ordinary Space marines don't do as well, you just gave a scenario I faced in my last game. 10 space marines (sergaent, powerfist), mandrakes got the charge got lucky, killed 3 space marines, lost 1 in return. In the meantime this unit provides no cover fire, so my raider mounted units kill 2 5 man units of stern guard, a special character with a 3+ inv. a drednought and kill 5 out of 10 space marines in another unit. Sure I got lucky, but stopping those 4 missile launchers from shooting me for one turn meant my opponent's army could be crippled with fewer loses.

I have 25 darklight weapons, and 11 vehicles(2000pts), I'm actually happy I don't have another vehicle clogging up my deployment zone, and I don't need anymore anti-tank.

Nothing can do as well against tau or IG as mandrakes do. Simply because other units have to make it across the board first, mandrakes make it easier for your other units to get there, and once they have bale blast IG generally have a hell of a time getting rid of them.

You can crunch as many numbers as you want to but in the end a player should use all the units in the army before passing judgement, especially with an army like Dark Eldar.

Comparing mandrakes to incubi is like comparing guerillas to tanks, sure the Tanks are bigger, scarier and they'll get the job done, but guerillas will hit them where they don't want to be hurt(or expect to be) and usually create one hell of a distraction.

Well there's my rant for the day.

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The_Outsider

· #12 · Jan 29, 2011

Serbi said:
This is basically what I'm saying here. They have move through cover sure, but any player worth their salt will keep their vulnerable shooty units in terrain somehow, which negates their initiative.

Who cares? In this scenario the job of the mandrakes is to deny the unit's ability to shoot, you don't need to actually care what happens in combat as long as the mandrakes do not break.

And the cover save is fine, if you plan on shooting, which they can't do. If you're goal with them is to sit in cover and hopefully scare an opponent, then fine, take these guys in droves. If I fought you, I wouldn't waste the shots.

This leads to false conclusions - you need to step back and see what happens if you don't shoot them. Nobody is just going to leave mandrakes as a shooting unit, but ignoring them leads to trouble given they cover ground very quickly.

So, let's say you have a squad of 10 guys. On the charge against marines that'd be 30 attacks, 15 hits, 7 wounds, and marines would take 3.5 wounds.
If they have a squad of 10 chaos marines, they'd lose 1.2 guys, attack back with 18 attacks, causing 9 hits, 6 wounds, and you lose 4 guys.

Against normal marines, you'd lose 2 guys. Which means you still are (on average) losing combat, even if you have the charge and your target is not in cover.

Compare against a squad of 5 incubi, which would get 15 attacks, 10 hits, 5 wounds (and kills).
Which would leave the chaos marines with 10 attacks, 5 hits, 3 wounds, and 1 kill.
Normal marines would cause 1.5 wounds and kill 0.5 models.

Slow down there horsey, this is what is known as false logic.

The incubi also do not have grenades on their own, the incubi also require a raider or WWP to get close and are also a good 7 points more per model.

However this does not matter, for incubi have a totally different role to mandrakes. Incubi are a true dedicated assault unit, and they specialise in dealing with MeQs so of course they will do more damage than mandrakes, who are a harassment/hunter-kill unit.

Killing a unit isn't the only way to determine how useful/powerful another is as it completely ignores synergy and assumes that MOAR POWA is the only yardstick to judge a unit against.

Incubi and mandrakes also have different preferred targets, going head first for a devastator squad (for example) with incubi is usually a bad move, while mandrakes covnersely wouldn't want to take on an assautl squad.

The incubi squad would cost 40 pts less, or you can drop it in a raider and have it cost 20 pts more and have much greaty mobility as well as an extra dark lance to toss around.

Right, but that brings additional problems - many of which mandrakes do not have to deal with. For example said raider has to actually cross a good 24"+ to make combat, mandrakes will only need to cover 18" maximum.

You also have the extra crutch of the incubi's main source of mobility being tied to the raider itself, something the infiltrating mandrakes do not have to worry about.

And being that both of these squads are elites and can not be used to capture objectives, this seems like a fair unit to compare it to.

True, but one is vastly better at contesting than the other (hint: it isn't the incubi).

And if you're going to compare what a squad can do to tau or IG, anything in the codex can do well against tau and IG in cc.

This is again false logic, just because everything can does not mean it is tactically sensible to use them in such a manner.

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Reactions: 1

mrvegas

· #13 · Feb 8, 2011

honestly I'm quite disappointed in this unit. The models are the best looking unit released, but Mandrakes rules are an epic fail. Sure they can infiltrate but that's it. I would much prefer trueborns who can shoot from a distance turn 1 or grotesques/incubi who can assault significantly better.

Kantoken

· #14 · Feb 8, 2011

First off, I need to get this of my chest: I miss their special Hidden Deployment rule from the last codex. It made for some extra psyhological warfare towards your opponent, having these three radar blips coming towards him, and you got to decide where and when the full unit appeared. BAM! Ten Mandrakes near an objective/command squad/biovore, how awesome was that?

I'm afraid Mandrakes have become a 'situational' unit. Against low toughness/low saves armies, they will do great stuff. Against other armies, I'm not so sure. Which is a shame, as I want to use them because of their fluff. On the other hand, 10 Mandrakes don't make for an expensive unit, so maybe that's what they do best: being a cheap distraction unit.

El_Jairo

· #15 · Feb 8, 2011

In my book denying return fire in turn 1 is a great feat. Our transports are so fragile that one turn of a Devestator/Long Fang sqaud can really make the difference in any battle.
I am convinced to give these guy a try, maybe they are not a no-brainer unit but I can see their advantage.

Kudos to you guys to make this point.

nigelboyette

· #16 · Feb 9, 2011

Kantoken said:
First off, I need to get this of my chest: I miss their special Hidden Deployment rule from the last codex. It made for some extra psyhological warfare towards your opponent, having these three radar blips coming towards him, and you got to decide where and when the full unit appeared. BAM! Ten Mandrakes near an objective/command squad/biovore, how awesome was that?

I'm afraid Mandrakes have become a 'situational' unit. Against low toughness/low saves armies, they will do great stuff. Against other armies, I'm not so sure. Which is a shame, as I want to use them because of their fluff. On the other hand, 10 Mandrakes don't make for an expensive unit, so maybe that's what they do best: being a cheap distraction unit.

but dude seriously was it ever a real surprise to a good opponent. i remember facing a guy with mandrakes who had set up 3 of them at equdistant intervals, i knew he was going for my rangers on the obj. so i just blocked him off, his mandrkes had to go somewhere else and eneded up being useless at least now its more striaght forward. overall they are a way better unit than they were. although i do wish that they had given some cool weapon options to the nightfeind.

Kantoken

· #17 · Feb 13, 2011

nigelboyette said:
but dude seriously was it ever a real surprise to a good opponent. i remember facing a guy with mandrakes who had set up 3 of them at equdistant intervals, i knew he was going for my rangers on the obj. so i just blocked him off, his mandrkes had to go somewhere else and eneded up being useless at least now its more striaght forward. overall they are a way better unit than they were. although i do wish that they had given some cool weapon options to the nightfeind.

Oooh for an Agoniser or Poisoned weapon or two...

nigelboyette

· #18 · Feb 14, 2011

ok so i played a few games with a squad of 10 mandrakes, and i must say that im impressed with them. they are not an overpowering unit at melee or shooting but when deployed in the right place they act as a buffer unit to more fragile shooting units like warriors, i ran mine next to a raider squad of warriors so that i could protect the warriors from shooting and the warriors could help to boost the mandrakes shooting capabilities.

goldenS

· #19 · Feb 16, 2011

Serbi said:
I can easily say these guys are the worst unit in the codex.

Their save is poor, they can't shoot starting out, they can't take a vehicle, their melee is worse than Wracks and they cost more points. They're not particularly good at anything really. They just have infiltrate. If they had a pain token starting out, maybe you could plop them in cover and blast things that walk near them. But because they don't have that, and you can't infiltrate with a haemy. They're just bad.

this is because they NEED the kills to ALLOW them to shoot! (if a heame joins them near turn 2, then they can gain Baleblast!

KwiKwag

· #20 · Feb 16, 2011

I am going to reserve judgement on these guys as I see both issues being correct - however, my personal motto is that I will never talk bad about a unit I have never tried.

Right now they are next to be used in a list I have and I intend to use them in a Coven theme with Urien and 2 wwps. I will try to infiltrate them to where a haemy is going to deploy the wwp and the two can connect. Obviously, they will both enjoy each others company and hopefully there will be something for them to tackle other than protecting the portal and the portal carrier. Of course, I am also using them in a list with a chronus and imgaining having the mandrakes with furious charge makes them dangerous to vehicles as well.

Somehow I feel this is how GW wanted us to use them and I can see where they had to keep them fairly weak for their points - any other additional buffs and they probably would have to raise their price.

I'll give them a fair shot, not just a one-time deal and let them die. If I can make the old mandrakes useful, I think I can make these guys useful as well.

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