[Blind-Hope]

Firstly, apologies if this has already been covered, I took a scan through but with 101 pages I suspected I'd die of old age before covering them all!

My issue is this: If a standard marine unit with the Combat Tacits rule takes enough casualties from a pinning weapon, then after testing for pinning it then must test for morale at the end of the phase.

Combat Tactics allows them to automatically fail this test if they wish, thus they fall back and no longer count as having gone to ground. They follow this up by automatically rallying, consolidating 3" and then getting their normal move - apart from counting as moving this seems pretty damn good and almost negates pinning altogether (depending on the unit - this happened to an Attack Bike squadron, the net effect being that being pinned by the snipers allowed them to redeploy a considerable distance in one turn with no loss of firepower other than the initial loss).

Is this me just missing somthing in the rules, or is simply more proof of GW's massive hard on for marines? I mean, I was the marine player in the above case and even I thought it was fairly ridiculous...

 

[pinky_si]

Other than the fact that they don't get the 3" consolidate and their normal move (just their normal move - ATSKNF replaces the 3" consolidate with being able to move dormally iirc), that does indeed sound like how it should work.

There is of course an element of risk in choosing to fail a morale test, like not being able to rally due to the other restrictions that ATSKNF doesn't protect against - enemies within 6" for example, which means that this exploit will have limited regular usefulness.

The same exploit is possible for other armies too. For example: Ork mobs under 11 models but over half strength can do it fairly reliably - just don't use Mob Rule to up their leadership, test on LD 7 and fail (fairly likely), then use Mob Rule at the start of their turn to give a good chance of rallying. I'm sure there's other methods out there too...

There's also probably some scope for argument that falling back when pinned doesn't remove the pinned status (at work at the moment, so can't check the books to be certain of this) and that Combat Tactics lets the marines fall back away from the enemy, ATSKNF auto-rallies them, but pinning still encourages them to keep their heads down once they have relocated.

 

[Blind-Hope]

'Lo Si!

As far as I can tell (got home early due to stinking cold), not only does does falling back break pinning (going to ground - unit that falls back 'returns to normal immediately') but I don't even think you lose your consolidate with ATSKNF - possibly you used to but I don't see mention of it in the new edition codex.

Cheeky! Well, good to know I wasn't just going mad...

 

[Archon Charybdis]

but I don't even think you lose your consolidate with ATSKNF - possibly you used to but I don't see mention of it in the new edition codex.

I don't have a codex handy to give you a page number, but read up on ATSKNF again when you get a chance. They most definitely don't get the 3'' consolidation in addition to a normal move. They do however, not count as moving (unless of course they then use their normal 6'' to move), and so can auto-rally and still fire heavy weapons.

 

[Mastershake]

RAW says they do get the 3" consolidation. Seems stupid, but that's just how it works. They rallied, there is no exclusion for not getting it, they get it.

The INAT FAQ (common, but not official or universal), alters this and says they don't.

Also, this whole thing assumes you aren't using a SM special character (except Calgar), so we all know this situation will never come up

 

[Archon Charybdis]

RAW says they do get the 3" consolidation. Seems stupid, but that's just how it works. They rallied, there is no exclusion for not getting it, they get it.

I was fairly certain the codex said instead of the normal rules for regrouping they got to move normally. I'll have to check when I get a chance I suppose. Also, INAT has a tendency to clarify fairly clear things just to make absolutely sure ass-hats don't ruin Adepticon.

 

[pinky_si]

Much as I never actually do it, I'd have to agree that RAW does seem to support marines getting both the 3" consolidate and their regular move.

The way I read it is this;

- Start of Movement Phase (before falling back unit moves) (BRB p45 Para 1)
- Check for restrictions on regrouping (BRB p46)
- Regroup test can immediately take 3" move (part of the act of regrouping) (BRB p46 para 11)
- Rest of movement phase (normally couldn't move any further, but ATSKNF over-rides this restriction) (BRB p46 para 12)

The counter argument to this is the phrase in ATSKNF "usually troops that regroup cannot move normally and always count as moving whether they do or not." (C: SM p.51, emphasis mine). This implies that the 3" move is in place of the unit's normal movement, and the "whether they do or not" refers to whether the unit opts to take the 3" consolidate.

Another fine example of GW wording which leaves loop-holes large enough to drive a land raider through


Side note (which I spotted whilst checking the rules for the above)
Although I never noticed it before, Marines are vulnerable to instant destruction if assaulted while falling back (assuming of course that they fail their leadership test to regroup) as ATSKNF only protects against Sweeping Advances, not assaults while falling back which are two separate things. Not of course that you'd usually want to assault them (far better to escort them gently off the table ;p), but an interesting way to ruin an unlucky marine player's day.

 

[Mastershake]

ATSKNF says the unit automatically passes tests to regroup, why would they not automatically pass the test to regroup if they are falling back? In fact because the test to regroup when assaulted while falling back ignores all conditions, it's actually impossible for them not to.

 

[psichotykwyrm]

Much as I never actually do it, I'd have to agree that RAW does seem to support marines getting both the 3" consolidate and their regular move.

I bolded out the part where folks are getting mixed up. There is absolutely no mention of any "consolidation" under Regrouping in the 5e rulebook. Page 46 gives provisions for a 3" move, which is never called anything other than a "move".

Also, this 3" move is never said to be the actual act of Regrouping(though part of it). They merely go on to say that a unit that has Regrouped can move 3". As this is done in the Movement Phase, the 3" move replaces a unit's move for that phase. Essentially, Regrouping is the unit's "move action".

ATSKNF replaces a Marine's Regoup move for normal movement. This rule does not allow the Marines to move twice.
:beer:

 

[Mastershake]

Also, this 3" move is never said to be the actual act of Regrouping(though part of it). They merely go on to say that a unit that has Regrouped can move 3". As this is done in the Movement Phase, the 3" move replaces a unit's move for that phase. Essentially, Regrouping is the unit's "move action".

It doesn't say that 3" movement replaces the normal movement or that it is the units one allowed move action for a turn.

You're also incorrect on the 3" move being a part of the regrouping action:

"Once a unit has regrouped, it cannot otherwise move during that Movement phase"

The move is an assumed part of the regrouping process.

 

[pinky_si]

ATSKNF says the unit automatically passes tests to regroup, why would they not automatically pass the test to regroup if they are falling back? In fact because the test to regroup when assaulted while falling back ignores all conditions, it's actually impossible for them not to.

Good point, well presented

I stand corrected

That's what comes from reading bits of rules in the wrong context, while answering another question :foot-in-mouth:

 

[psichotykwyrm]

It doesn't say that 3" movement replaces the normal movement or that it is the units one allowed move action for a turn.

You're also incorrect on the 3" move being a part of the regrouping action:

"Once a unit has regrouped, it cannot otherwise move during that Movement phase"

The move is an assumed part of the regrouping process.

I did in fact say it was part of Regrouping.

Regrouping grants a specific move (also normally denying any other moves). Since when can any unit ever move twice in the Movement Phase?

Everything about the right-hand side of page 46 indicates that Regrouping takes the place of a unit's normal move.
1. Choose to move the unit, make Regroup test.
2. Move up to 3", no other moves.
3. Always counts as moving.

For all intents and purposes, the unit has moved. Its a matter of context.

 

[Mastershake]

I appreciate your position that somehow the 3" move involved in regrouping counts as the units movement for the turn, but it really is pure inference not supported by RAW.

It's interesting that you acknowledge that the 3" move is an integral part of the regrouping process, but deny that when a marine unit regroups that it may execute it. You simply can't have it both ways, either the 3" move is part of the process or it isn't and all of the passages on this side of the page point to the former.

Since when can any unit ever move twice in the Movement Phase?

It's a special rule, what other units without the rule can do means nothing to the discussion. It's like saying "since when do units get two chances to save a wound?" about models with FNP, by definition special rules let you do things you normally can't so trying to look at what units without it are capable of is beyond meaningless.

 

[Blind-Hope]

Actually now I've read it the 3" move could be considered the unit's normal move. The written wording states the unit stops falling back and regroups. Then it goes on to say it may immediately make a move of up to 3" unaffected by difficult terrain - exact wording here seems to indicate the move is not part of the regroup process as it happens after the unit regroups - in fact, the only restriction seems to be that you must make this move immediately after they regroup.

More than a little ambiguous perhaps, but then who's surprised at that?

 

[psichotykwyrm]

My previous statements were made without the SM Codex on hand. Now that I've checked my book, its time for me to backpedal/recant a bit.

The interaction between ATSKNF and Regrouping seems like it does grant both the 3" and normal moves.

-The 3" move is done as part of Regrouping.
-No further movement is a restriction provided by the Regroup rules.
-ATSKNF does away with this movement restriction.
-Therefore, Marines get the 3" move (if the player desires), and then they may move as normal.

 

[Blind-Hope]

Actually, I stand by my point of earlier - having read through, I don't think the 3" move is part of the act of regrouping.

Regrouping simply places the following restrictions on your movement:
a) You are limited to 3", ignoring difficult terrain. You may not otherwise move during the movement phase (embarking onto a vehicle or similar I imagine)
b) You must make this move immediately after you regroup.

By this argument (and I accept, it depends on your interpretation of the RAW), when ATSKNF removes the movement restrictions it means that once the marines regroup automatically, they may move at any point during the movement phase at their normal speed - I think the key was psichotykwyrm pointing out that there is no 'consolidation' move, just a move. Probably most of us who have been through past editions are too used to treating the move as part of the regroup process.