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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So i liked the skaven from the fantasy right? so i was looking at the Hrud awhile back and i noticed that the skaven (small group of Hrud Warriors who worship Chaos) worshipped The Great Horned Rat (also from fantasy) and he is a minor chaos god and i always liked the idea of a minor god schemed chaos army and i was wondering the about the implications of this task.
 

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Son of LO
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Hmm, may I ask where did you read about this horned rat stuff? I don't recall ever having seen it.

Then again, the Hrud are barely mentioned in 40k fluff.

Malal is the only minor god I can think of off the top of my head, and even he is only implied rather than referred to, because GW don't own any rights to him.
 

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I believe the Horned Rat is strictly Warhammer Fantasy fluff; I did come across an article on Necromunda once that included a reference to a subgroup of Hrud called Skaven who worshipped the ‘Great Horned One’, but this was fan-fluff and not official fluff, and I haven’t been able to back up this article with any official information so I’m guessing it’s just made up. I have never read in any official fluff that the Horned Rat should be a minor Chaos God in 40k. In fact, I’ve never heard of minor Chaos Gods at all in 40k; Malal wasn’t minor when he was around, he was at least as strong as his fellow Gods.

There are beings in the 40k universe powerful enough that they could in theory be minor Chaos Gods if they were independent, but since they don’t posses any individual Chaos powers they’re actually only to be considered daemons of the major four Ruinous Powers. A Greater Daemon of Tzeentch once claimed to be the Emperor returned, which earned it quite a following until it was exposed; another daemon of unknown origin, possibly Nurglite, passed itself off as the Omnissiah for a while. Many daemons are worshipped as gods on various Daemon-worlds because they like to feel important and receive prayers and sacrifices, but this doesn’t actually make them gods.

If you want the Horned Rat in your fluff, I think the most fluffy solution (unless you come across official fluff placing it in 40k already) would be to have it be a Greater Daemon of a kind claiming to be a God (and what mortal being can prove it wrong?) If powerful enough it can grant powers and gifts to its followers just like a Chaos God, and send lesser daemons to serve its worshippers as they slave to fulfil some master plan it has concocted. Of course, being a daemon, it will be subservient to the actual Chaos Gods, but its followers needn’t know that of course... ;)

~Greph.
 

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Pg. 38 of the CSM codex. The cultist may also honor the minor spirits of the warp...


I agree that minor Chaos gods would be in fact minor, but say for example, Chaos Undivided Daemon Princes risen to the highest peak(beyond that represented in game play) could be considered minor or demi-gods without being aligned to any of the big four.
 

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I remember in the 2nd edition chaos codex Cypher was said to be protected by a minor chaos powergiving him an unmodifiable 4+ on 3D6 roll to be removed from play rather than killed (it was important for Victory points).
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Im pretty sure the Great Horned Rat was an official minor god but he hasnt made any re-apperances ( prolly fighting the Hrud he is only a minor god you know) and your right about the whole god thing except think, the Chaos Gods ARE daemons there just extremely powerful ones in fact THE most powerful (Daemon Princes prolly are powerful enough to count as minor gods themselves) also the Skaven were official GW creations (40k skaven). also there are probably many minor gods their just well you know MINOR so they dont appear alot merely choosing to bide their time for ample opportunities to cause devestation and destruction the attacks just arent that common so they get written off as just another Chaos incursion which they sorta are.
 

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I Endure
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This question really depends on how you define a god. In 40k, you could argue that there are four chaos Gods, and a multitude of Daemons, or that the chaos gods are simply bigger Daemons than the rest. Under the second interpretation, any Daemon which has it's own followers could be considered to be a God, so Daemon Princes and Greater Daemons would probably be minor gods in their own right already.

I can't comment on the Horned Rat thing, because I haven't heard anything of it 40k, but examples of minor gods would be the afformentioned ones who protect Cypher, and it is mentioned somewhere that Spikey Bits were worn in veneration of the minor Gods.
 

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As Perturabo says, this is really a question that depends on one’s definition of the various entities that inhabit the warp. The important thing to realise is that not every warp entity is actually a daemon; some are merely warp spirits with no allegiance, and according to some fluff sources, some are actually benevolent and helping humanity against their own malevolent kin.

The Chaos Gods are not daemons; they’re Warp Gods, just like the Eldar Gods were Warp Gods, and they were like these created from conglomerations of the emotions and thoughts of sentient beings. They gain their powers directly from these emotions, and they’re currently trapped inside the warp and can’t manifest in the real world. Daemons, on the other hand, are sentient entities created from and powered by the Chaos Gods; they owe allegiance to their God and must obey his commands or else risk being destroyed, but unlike the Chaos Gods daemons can actually manifest themselves in the real world when powerful enough to break the barrier separating it from the warp.

The reason why I say there are no minor Chaos Gods is because the Ruinous Four would not have allowed other Warp Gods to exist and contest with them for power; they destroyed the only other known group of Warp Gods, the Eldar Divine Pantheon, and only Khaine survived in some way or other by hiding his powers in his avatars (the avatars are the Eldar version of daemons of course.) Minor Warp Gods would simply be gobbled up by the major Warp Gods as soon as they gained sentience.

And as I said in my previous post, just because people worship something doesn’t make it a god. Many daemons enjoy worship, but they’re not actually Chaos Gods.

~Grephaun.
 

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Well. The Laughing God also survived by hiding himself in the webway, without having to break him/herself up into avatars, but I'll get to why I think that was in a bit. As a partial aside if you want to talk about Eldar Gods, the Eldar are also trying to build one in their infinity circuits. But that's not an actual god as of yet.


As to whether the big four would gobble up competitors, that certainly seems likely that they would try and in many cases be successful, but in 40K no god is completely omnipotent, so I think it likely that other smaller chaos gods could also survive in similar fashion to the laughing god, by:

1.Representing other emotions, cosmic signifigances than the big four, so both not directly in competition and out of 'juristiction' as it were of the big 4.
I doubt that we will argue about whether Khorne for example has more influence over rage than the other big 4, but much less influence in regards to other emotions like lust. As that is a given, I believe that minor gods with their power base being something not encompased by the big four may survive. In addition, being seen as less of a threat, they will lower on the gods list of priorities to deal with.

This is in part why I believe the Laughing God survived, since what he represented was not encompased by the other four while Khaine who was broken up into the Avatars represented ideals that were taken by both Khorne and the newly born Slaanesh. The tug of war between the two greater gods enabled Khaine to partially escape and hide in Avatars.

2. Hiding and running and basically trying to avoid the attention of the big four. Once again, like the Laughing God.

3. Being strong enough on their own to avoid anything but a concentrated effort by one of the big four, which would in turn.

4.Weaken the major power that was destroying the minor god, leading the other big three to make headway in their own private agendas against it.

Finally I wish to note that there are both Daemon Princes and according to the Daemonhunter codex, greater daemons of Chaos Undivided, and these certainly do not owe their allegience to any one major power, but as of yet, have not been devoured.

In addition, as stated earlier, minor chaos gods have been mentioned in the past in the Chaos fluff, and there has been no clear statement saying that they do not exist any longer.
The minor gods not being mentioned I believe is simply connected to the general simplification of the fluff in order to:

1.Appeal to a wider and younger audience and thus sell more stuff.

2.Adhere to the focus of the fluff being mainly from the Imperium's point of view to help fulfill #1. again. Since the Imperium for the most part is ignorant of the intricacies of the warp and chaos, this simplification of the chaos gods into the big four follows naturally out of their lack of knowledge.

Once again, I agree with you that the big four would be naturally inclined to devour any competing gods. I just feel that they may not always be aware of such entities, or being aware, may lack the will, power, or even time(although time is subjective in the warp) to do so. The conflicts amongst the big four also occupies a majority of their efforts and time, further distracting them from going after these little fish.
 

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The Laughing God currently exists outside of both the warp and the material realm, that’s why I didn’t include him; while he is still alive, his powers are also vastly diminished and he no longer has the ability of a true Warp God. His situation is unique, and he can’t really be used as a comparison to another Warp God in this debate.

As for your theory about the Laughing God being spared because he didn’t encompass the darker emotions of the Ruinous Powers, I’m not buying it. Slaanesh managed to assimilate all the other gods, including the Goddess of Motherhood and the Goddess of Dreams. What do they have to do with anything that Slaanesh represents? He is the God of Carnal Desire, while Isha was the Goddess of Motherly Love. That’s a connection I just can’t see. And Morai-heg, the Goddess of Fate, wouldn’t she have been a more suitable meal for Tzeentch?

It’s true that a warp entity probably could run and hide from the Ruinous Powers, but how would it do that and maintain control of its chosen people at the same time? In my opinion, it would be much more realistic if the Horned Rat that Brigand wants as a Chaos God were actually a greater daemon; the canon fluff simply doesn’t allow for the invention of new Chaos Gods, but it’s wide open for new daemons of all kinds. As I said before, daemons have disguised themselves as the Emperor more than once and been worshipped as such by Imperial citizens, so why not have a daemon being worshipped as the Horned Rat? It makes perfect sense, unlike creating a whole new god.

As for daemons of Chaos Undivided, it’s not true that they don’t owe allegiance to anyone; the truth is that they owe allegiance to all the four Chaos Gods. Without the Chaos Gods, they wouldn’t exist, hence they must be daemons and not gods in their own right.

Finally, in regard to minor Chaos Gods being mentioned in the fluff, I would like a reference for that, for I have never come across it. Minor warp spirits and entities, yes, but not Gods. As I said, many things live in the warp that are neither gods nor daemons, but that’s not to say that they’re necessarily not very powerful.

~Greph.
 

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I don't the eldar gods can be put on quite the same level as chaos gods..

The reason being that, by the evidence I've seen, they were artificial creations. They weren't birthed naturally from the emotions of living creatures, but rather, were created synthetically as an act of psychic will, to aid the eldar in their lives and battles. The eldar are currently trying to recreate this in the infinity circuit, hopefully giving birth to a new god.

(Not that I can see how it would help them.. I mean, Slannesh ate all of the eldar gods at once when it was newborn, what's one going to do save pop up and get munched.)

Therefore, Khaine and the laughing god don't neccesarily represent an emotion.
 

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Not Black and White.

The_Giant_Mantis said:
I don't the eldar gods can be put on quite the same level as chaos gods..
I agree. We're talking about minor gods.

The_Giant_Mantis said:
The reason being that, by the evidence I've seen, they were artificial creations. They weren't birthed naturally from the emotions of living creatures, but rather, were created synthetically as an act of psychic will, to aid the eldar in their lives and battles. The eldar are currently trying to recreate this in the infinity circuit, hopefully giving birth to a new god.
Hmm. Interesting. (About the Eldar Gods being created artificially. I'd never heard that. Not necessarily doubting you, but do you have any references about that to add?) Either way, not sure why this would make something less of a god no matter how it is created, although it certainly lends credence to my theory that a minor chaos god representing an actual emotion would have better chance of survival than these eldar gods that did not in your words and thus died.

The_Giant_Mantis said:
(Not that I can see how it would help them.. I mean, Slannesh ate all of the eldar gods at once when it was newborn, what's one going to do save pop up and get munched.)
Certainly. Direct conflict with one of the major gods is only going to result in extinction by a lesser warp power, which is why any surviving minor gods would only do so by avoiding said conflict.

The_Giant_Mantis said:
Therefore, Khaine and the laughing god don't neccesarily represent an emotion.
Huh? Did something get left out of your post? Unless you're referring to your earlier statement that the Eldar gods were artificially created.


Grephaun said:
The Laughing God currently exists outside of both the warp and the material realm, that’s why I didn’t include him; while he is still alive, his powers are also vastly diminished and he no longer has the ability of a true Warp God. His situation is unique, and he can’t really be used as a comparison to another Warp God in this debate.
If he's outside the warp, then I agree that he can't be considered a Warp God, but he still has validity in this argument by providing an example of the fact that the big four are not omnipotent and thus things and by extension minor chaos gods can escape their grasp.

Grephaun said:
As for your theory about the Laughing God being spared because he didn’t encompass the darker emotions of the Ruinous Powers, I’m not buying it..
Um, thats not what I said. I gave multiple reasons why a minor chaos god might escape a major gods attention. Encompassing another emotion was but one of them which the Harlequin possessed.

Grephaun said:
Slaanesh managed to assimilate all the other gods, including the Goddess of Motherhood and the Goddess of Dreams. What do they have to do with anything that Slaanesh represents? He is the God of Carnal Desire, while Isha was the Goddess of Motherly Love. That’s a connection I just can’t see. And Morai-heg, the Goddess of Fate, wouldn’t she have been a more suitable meal for Tzeentch?
Certainly possible, but again, Slannesh was created by the Eldar's emotions, so would naturally have a greater understanding and essentially tactical advantage here. While Tzeentch might have wanted to devour Morai-heg, he wasn't able to/didn't/coulsn't be bothered prior to that period. It was the tremendous outburst of power that Slannesh's birth gave him/her that enabled her to devour the Eldar Gods, combined with the close relationship they shared being both the creation of the Eldar, whilst Tzeentch existed before this.

Again, the birth of Slannesh gives circumstantial evidence that minor gods are a possibility, since it did not exist fully untill the Eldar Fall, yet was not consumed by the other big four when it was born.

Grephaun said:
It’s true that a warp entity probably could run and hide from the Ruinous Powers, but how would it do that and maintain control of its chosen people at the same time?
Very good point. With great difficulty and secrecy no doubt. I'm with you there 100% Unless the other big four don't care about that particular god, in which case we're back to them representing other emotions.

Grephaun said:
In my opinion, it would be much more realistic if the Horned Rat that Brigand wants as a Chaos God were actually a greater daemon; the canon fluff simply doesn’t allow for the invention of new Chaos Gods, but it’s wide open for new daemons of all kinds. As I said before, daemons have disguised themselves as the Emperor more than once and been worshipped as such by Imperial citizens, so why not have a daemon being worshipped as the Horned Rat? It makes perfect sense, unlike creating a whole new god.
Yep, I definately agree. I'm just arguing for the possibility not the likelihood. Daemons are much more common, and Brigand would have much less problems if that's what was chosen.

Grephaun said:
As for daemons of Chaos Undivided, it’s not true that they don’t owe allegiance to anyone; the truth is that they owe allegiance to all the four Chaos Gods. Without the Chaos Gods, they wouldn’t exist, hence they must be daemons and not gods in their own right. .

Well, I'm not sure that this has to follow. Certainly the big four can be worshipped as a pantheon, and in this case the daemons would owe them all allegiance equally. But, as given in the CSM codex, there are followers of Chaos(The Word Bearers spring to mind, but others as well) that worship Chaos in its totallity as something beyond the gods. Basically some unfathomable overmind of Chaos beyond the big four, but which is beyond almost any human's ability to comprehend or elaborate upon.

Grephaun said:
Finally, in regard to minor Chaos Gods being mentioned in the fluff, I would like a reference for that, for I have never come across it..
The previous CSM codex, under the description of Spiky bits as stated earlier in this thread meantions minor chaos gods specifically. Refers to CSMs praising and I quote "Mo'rcck,Phraz-Etar And An'sl." Pg.20 of the CSm codex with the badly drawn cover with the marine with one eye gone all milky after being cut. Now, while the first is an obvious homage to Michael Moor****, the author that was one of the sources from which GW drew the ideas of Chaos from, they are certainly referenced. Other references to gods such as Malal are also more widely available, but now downplayed due to copyright.

Grephaun said:
Minor warp spirits and entities, yes, but not Gods. As I said, many things live in the warp that are neither gods nor daemons, but that’s not to say that they’re necessarily not very powerful.

~Greph.
Well, there we come back to a definition of what is a god. Myself personally, I would call all the big 4 just majorly powerful warp entities rather than gods since they are not omnipotent. But I am perhaps western religion oriented that way. ;).



BTW. If I/we are highjacking this thread I certainly appologize. I just like the opportunity for a good debate, particularly against Manichean views of the 40K universe. Nothing is that cut and dried in real life, why should our game be different?

As an aside...here's another thread about this topic. Most of it is drivel, but there is some further confirmation that others believe that so called minor gods can exist.

http://www.librarium-online.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51639&highlight=minor+gods
 

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I don't the eldar gods can be put on quite the same level as chaos gods..
Of course not, the chaos gods were created from the emotions of all races, whereas the Eldar gods were only from the Eldar.

(Not that I can see how it would help them.. I mean, Slannesh ate all of the eldar gods at once when it was newborn, what's one going to do save pop up and get munched.)
I always assumed that Slaanesh devoured the Eldar gods for the simple reason that he devoured the psychic presence of all the corrupt Eldar therefor depriving the Eldar gods of their power source.

Well, there we come back to a definition of what is a god. Myself personally, I would call all the big 4 just majorly powerful warp entities rather than gods since they are not omnipotent. But I am perhaps western religion oriented that way.
Personally I believe that all warp entities are basically the same thing with a continual scale of power, from the screaming voices that are birthed from the passage of a ship in warp space all the way up to the big four, they're all the same thing really. Demons are those that are classed as malevolent and powerful enough to pose a threat, Gods are simply the warp entities that are most powerful. Also although weaker entities can give allegiance to a more powerful in exchange for power/protection, they don't have to, but they can be powered b each other as well as mortal beings.

As for the laughing god I think its something like this:

Laughing god

General madness/apathy
Has a 1+ invulnerable save that is never negated, however when used he must laugh madly and perform seemingly random actions. Whether there is a greater plan to these is unkown.
 

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I am the Monkey King said:
Of course not, the chaos gods were created from the emotions of all races, whereas the Eldar gods were only from the Eldar.
That's just the thing.. A lot of the eldar gods don't seem to represent emotions at all.

I mean, what about Vaul, the Smith God? What emotion does he represent in the eldar psyche, and if he is the embodiment of a fundamental and important emotion, why hasn't a similar god been reborn since his death?

The fact is, the four chaos gods pretty much cover all of the deepest and most primal emotions which are relatively common to psychically sensative life forms. Malal, the 5th (I agree with Greph, in the days before Slannesh or Tzeentch were invented by GW he was a major god.. however, the sons of malice could be seen as an attempt to subtley reintroduce him as a minor god) embodied hatred.. What else is there which is at the heart of the human or eldar psyche?

Khorne = Competition
Nurgle = Mortiphobia
Slannesh = The uniquely eldar tendancy towards obsession
Tzeentch = Growth, evolution

I am the monkey king said:
I always assumed that Slaanesh devoured the Eldar gods for the simple reason that he devoured the psychic presence of all the corrupt Eldar therefor depriving the Eldar gods of their power source.
An interesting theory.. But then, quite a few eldar survived the fall, including many of the 'corrupt' ones, who went on to form the dark eldar. Slannesh' soul munchie wasn't total. Also, apparently Khaine actually fought Slannesh before being destroyed by her. That implies an element of directness about her consumption of him..


I am the monkey king said:
Personally I believe that all warp entities are basically the same thing with a continual scale of power, from the screaming voices that are birthed from the passage of a ship in warp space all the way up to the big four, they're all the same thing really. Demons are those that are classed as malevolent and powerful enough to pose a threat, Gods are simply the warp entities that are most powerful. Also although weaker entities can give allegiance to a more powerful in exchange for power/protection, they don't have to, but they can be powered b each other as well as mortal beings.
That's probably true.. a warp entity is a warp entity, with the exception of enslavers, which are warp entities, but are very, very different from daemons. I'm not saying the eldar gods weren't like daemons in many ways.. However, there are differences in their origins, if not their manifestations. Daemons are born from emotion and, as befits beings born from the flawed emotions of sentient creatures, are nasty obsessive beings. Eldar gods, as the example of the attempt to resurrect Ynnead shows, can be created consciously, and embody concepts rather than emotions. With the exception of Khaine, they were all fairly stable, and didn't cause their followers to mutate into screaming spawn.

I'm searching for where it mentions the creation of the eldar gods. I believe it's part of the eldar mythology, but I'm not sure it's ever been mentioned in the fluff more than a few times. As I recall, it was a specific eldar hero who gave birth to all the other gods, using the might of his psychic will alone.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 · (Edited)
I think that most minor gods wouldnt be "competing" gods they would be too weak to present a real threat worth their concentration and remember the Great Horned Rat was around before the Hrud which have been around at least as long as the Eldar if not longer so he really isnt a "new" god, also if they killed a god of a certain emotion/feeling he would just be reincarnated because people kept feeling that way so it would be pointless to devour him when hes just gonna pop up again. Also Daemon Princes are loyal to a respective god if they were the servant of the god before ascension and if they became Daemon Princes as a result of the daemonic/chaos gifts like Ghargatuloth The Lord of a Thousand Faces who is a daemon prince and is obviously a Tzeentchy Daemon Prince he operates(or did before he was banished TWICE) thousands of cults in a huge amount of Imperial worlds.


P.S. im sorry Giant_Mantis but youv got the Chaos Gods emotions wrong (at least I think their wronge) i think it goes

Khorne=anger hatred violence
Nurgle= will to destroy the weak survival of the fittest yadda yadda yadda...
Slaanesh= Excess perfection pleasure obssesion
tzeentch=change evolution knowledge (or a thirst for it)
 

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Brigand said:
P.S. im sorry Giant_Mantis but youv got the Chaos Gods emotions wrong (at least I think their wronge) i think it goes

Khorne=anger hatred violence
Nurgle= will to destroy the weak survival of the fittest yadda yadda yadda...
Slaanesh= Excess perfection pleasure obssesion
tzeentch=change evolution knowledge (or a thirst for it)
I think your list is almost exactly the same as Mantis'. You're just using different adjectives.

Also, wrong has no e. Except in Ye Olde Englishe, where everything ended in an e.
 
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