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The deep down truth
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5,714 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Ok I have been a member of this fine forum for a few years now and the journey has not been smooth. I am happy to admit I have made plenty (and I mean plenty) of mistakes and I have a reputation amongst many of being difficult and outspoken. Now I fully acknowledge that this has been the case and I have made concerted efforts to change after warnings, advice etc from moderators. I have had mods help and constructively advise me on my behaviour and I think I have become a better person for this help and advice (no I don't think I have I KNOW I have).
However here is the thing I have also had the misfortune to be on the receiving end of what can only be described as unreasonable behaviour from various Mods on this forum. Now I am talking about behaviour that would definitely have been censored as flaming, trolling or just plain unacceptable from normal everyday members of this forum.

Just recently I was subjected to what basically was a veiled attack from a Mod on this forum and I was going to take it further and complain, but here is the thing, I have no faith that anything would be done about it so I have just left it This is a sad state of affairs but I just feel a fair and unbiased device for reporting Mod behaviour does not exist on this forum.
After all we are all subject to moderation by individuals that on the whole do a bloody good job (and they do, I am not just saying that) But the fact of the matter is that if someone sets themselves up to accept the responsibility to judge another's behaviour and potentially has the power to censure, punish, ban or admonish a member for not meeting said laid down standards of behaviour of the forum, then that person has a duty to behave impeccably and meet if not exceed the same standards of behaviour (in fact it behoves them to exceed said standards by virtue of setting themselves as judges of said behaviour).
After all if they judge then they have to be able to say that they know what is expected and they MUST conform rigidly to that same high standard.

Now I am going to put my head on the block and say that this is not the case with certain un-named members of the mod team and it is not the case by a long way. So I ask what exactly is the procedure for reporting a moderators abuse of his powers or reporting a Moderators non conformation to the rules set out in this forum? Because all I can see is we have to report it to someone higher, oh but that someone higher is a part of the moderator team, is this not what is called a conflict of interest.
So at the risk of making myself more unpopular than I already am with the Mod team I ask these simple questions:
(1) Has anyone else been the recipient of unacceptable behaviour from Mods?
(2) Does anyone else think that the present system for reporting abuse of Mod powers (is there one) is ineffectual and ineffective?
(3) Can anyone actually tell me what the system for reporting a Mod is?
(4) Who moderated the Mods?

As it stands I think the mods on this forum have way to much freedom to just do as they please, I think a double standard applies in that we as the everyday members of the forum are bound by expectations of standards of behaviour, yet these same standards do not seem to apply to the mods and this is unacceptable. The Mods should be setting the example and while the majority do so there is a definite minority that do not and I think they let the forum down.
What do you the members think should be done about this? I think that we should have a system whereby we can provide evidence of any unacceptable Mod behaviour and the Mods should be answerable for their actions. This system I feel does simply not exist a the moment.
Now I know I am going to take flack for this post(what's new he asks wistfully), mostly people saying I am not one to talk for my past actions and that is fine, however if I do need to answer then that is fine, my argument is this though. If I need to answer for unacceptable behaviour that does not meet the forum rules then do not the Mods judging me need to meet this same criteria and if they do not meet said standards then they should not be Mods and we should have some definite means of reporting and enforcing these standards of moderation is that unreasonable?
 

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I'm back >.>
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2,233 Posts
Just a point here, man thats a big block of text, most people won't read that lol. You should know that by now, :p

1) Yes, once or twice, but yeah,
2) It is kinda to be honest, I normally talk to another Mod, not Blackhat or Stoney, mostly Karmoon as he will tell them or do something about it.
3) Basically it normally is PM Blackhat or Stoney or try another mod preferably a super mod or higher, Karmoon, David etc
4) Blackhat and Stoney choose the mods, so I guess they do.

Maybe, a good idea would be set up a small section on the forum that is private for people to report stuff if they wish, and maybe a small team of members not mods, to help them, but the mods can still view all posts there?
 

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Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
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2,642 Posts
First off, I've got to take care of some minor housekeeping - and that is moving this to the Feedback & Support forum. I am by no means trying to deprive you of your say, I just would rather keep the general hobby discussion forum for hobby discussions.

Second, you seem to have some resentment toward our team, and for that I am deeply sorry. I will say I agree with your points about moderators holding themselves to a higher standard of behavior - when I have observed lapses in the past, I have addressed them. Not wanting to preempt any further opinions expressed in this thread, I will shelve the defense of our team for the moment and instead answer your questions:

(1) Has anyone else been the recipient of unacceptable behaviour from Mods?
Recieved, no.
(2) Does anyone else think that the present system for reporting abuse of Mod powers (is there one) is ineffectual and ineffective?
Obviously I think the current system is effective, but I also think that people may be unaware of it, or unsure of how to use it. This brings us to...
(3) Can anyone actually tell me what the system for reporting a Mod is?
There is a chain of command, so to speak. Those of us who are Supervisors have taken on the additional task of monitoring and responding to concernjs and complaints regarding members of the mod team. We are here to help you with whatever we can, or to refer you to whomever can help you if we cannot. As always, ultimate authority resides with Blackhat, but he gives us all an ear when it comes to disputes.

(4) Who moderated the Mods?
As I mentioned, we have a bit of a heirarchy: Moderator / Supermoderator / Supervisor / Admin. Our team is self-policing for the most part, though I freely welcome and give ear to member comments and occasional complaints.

If you feel comfortable, Riki, please PM me with details regarding your issue. All I ask is that this thread be kept as constructive as possible regarding the issue presented.


EDIT: To respond to Pickle's post, potential mods are nominated, deliberated on, and chosen by the entire team. The majority of decisions we make involve some degree of team input. When it comes to issues of site maintenance and upgrade, Stoney and Blackhat are clearly in charge, but issues relating to the community in general are often decided on by the entire team.
 

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Monkey of Mystery
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2,789 Posts
Our team is self-policing for the most part, though I freely welcome and give ear to member comments and occasional complaints.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes, indeed.

As to the original topic- I've had no drama from a mod and I'm sure I can be reasonably abrasive at times. I have a fair amount of faith in the team but I'd also like to think that if I did want to have a grumble then I would be listened to.
 

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Banned
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4,252 Posts
(1) Has anyone else been the recipient of unacceptable behaviour from Mods?
(2) Does anyone else think that the present system for reporting abuse of Mod powers (is there one) is ineffectual and ineffective?
(3) Can anyone actually tell me what the system for reporting a Mod is?
(4) Who moderated the Mods?
1) Nope, I have disagreed with some Mods in the past, gotten irritated at them etc, but I really think the Mod team is fine as it is. I've heard complaints from other people, but that's between them and the Mod in question.
2) I've never had to try it out, but from what I've seen it's not too bad.
3&4) Already been said.

As to your comment about the Mods having too much power, I've heard opinions that they don't do enough. Perhaps if you could give evidence, I'd be more convinced myself.

Recieved, no.
This is more of a nit-picking detail, but that specific you used can be taken as quite incriminating.

Just recently I was subjected to what basically was a veiled attack from a Mod on this forum
At risk of sounding ignorant/uneducated, what do you mean by veiled attack? If I may ask.

-AFG//
 

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Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Joined
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2,642 Posts
This is more of a nit-picking detail, but that specific you used can be taken as quite incriminating.
I need only fear such an interpretation if I have something to hide. Therefore, I have nothing to fear.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes, indeed.
Heh... and in the grand tradition of The Republic, the answer is that the protectors must protect themselves against themselves. While we are far from being a Utopian society here on LO, I feel our team does this adequately.
 

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I'm back >.>
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2,233 Posts
Cyric, are chat mdoerators also decided by the whole chat moderator team or is that just Blackhat and Stoney choosing? I think we need new mods appointed soon, as most of the time there isn't one around, or the ones that are, well they are totally useless as they aren't around. SOmetimes we get active mods depends really.

EDIT - Also, can we get an active mod actually in the Marine forums, as well I report a few threads to mods regularly, and well, I haven't seen a mod there for awhile.
 

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Has a monkey!
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1,630 Posts
1) No. Though I've thought some might have been perhaps too strict (i.e. perhaps nipping something in the bud a little too quickly, don't recall any specifics but I'm sure you can imagine), I've always thought the mods here do an admirable job. I'm interested in what this is all about, but I understand if you don't want to share.

2) From the sounds of things, there's enough people in charge that I trust that I can feel assured that I can get ahold of someone if I need to.

3) I can now.

4) See above.
 

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The deep down truth
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5,714 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
First off, I've got to take care of some minor housekeeping - and that is moving this to the Feedback & Support forum. I am by no means trying to deprive you of your say, I just would rather keep the general hobby discussion forum for hobby discussions.
My apologies I should have put this in the feedback forum.

Second, you seem to have some resentment toward our team, and for that I am deeply sorry. I will say I agree with your points about moderators holding themselves to a higher standard of behavior - when I have observed lapses in the past, I have addressed them. Not wanting to preempt any further opinions expressed in this thread, I will shelve the defense of our team for the moment and instead answer your questions:
I want to clarify something; I have no resentment towards the Mod team as a whole. I think that the majority of Mods on this forum do a fantastic job. My problem is with a small minority of Mods (and no I am not going to name them because this is not meant to be a name and shame exercise). I have a real problem with Mods who admonish us for certain behaviours and then do exactly the same thing themselves, also they basically make it obvious that they have a problem with you personally and base any decision on these personal feelings rather than taking an impartial stance.

Recieved, no.
Obviously I think the current system is effective, but I also think that people may be unaware of it, or unsure of how to use it. This brings us to...
There is a chain of command, so to speak. Those of us who are Supervisors have taken on the additional task of monitoring and responding to concernjs and complaints regarding members of the mod team. We are here to help you with whatever we can, or to refer you to whomever can help you if we cannot. As always, ultimate authority resides with Blackhat, but he gives us all an ear when it comes to disputes

As I mentioned, we have a bit of a heirarchy: Moderator / Supermoderator / Supervisor / Admin. Our team is self-policing for the most part, though I freely welcome and give ear to member comments and occasional complaints.

If you feel comfortable, Riki, please PM me with details regarding your issue. All I ask is that this thread be kept as constructive as possible regarding the issue presented.


EDIT: To respond to Pickle's post, potential mods are nominated, deliberated on, and chosen by the entire team. The majority of decisions we make involve some degree of team input. When it comes to issues of site maintenance and upgrade, Stoney and Blackhat are clearly in charge, but issues relating to the community in general are often decided on by the entire team.
And there is the problem 'the entire team' I know from experience that reported problems with Mods (or disputes about decisions of Mods) are discussed by the Mod team (all levels), how can this be fair?
How can a complaint about a Mod be discussed fairly by the Mod team (no matter who)? It is like letting the defence in trial decide if the person they are defending (and who is paying them) is guilty. We need an impartial party separate from the day to day Mod team who can look at both sides fairly and make decisions.
Like I said the mod team do a good job of moderating as a whole but when complaints about them are made they should not be handled by the same Mod team, it is bound to be a biased decision. The moderator should have no input other than to present their side of the case in exactly the same way as the member who has made the complaint; after all I cannot call on other members to sway the ear of the person who is making the decision so why should the Mod team have the privilege.

I will PM you with the issue I have at present and I agree that I do not want this thread to turn into an attack on the Mod team. I have respect and count many as friends and the comments here in no way apply to the majority. My point with this thread was to address the issue that if you are a Mod your behaviour has to be spotless and when it is not the machinery has to be there to make sure that the Mods are just as answerable as we the members are and at present I simply do not feel this is the case with a small minority of Mods. I have stated my point and I am happy to leave it at that.
 

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Rushing Jaws
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1,541 Posts
Largely I think the mod team does a fantastic job and they are one of the main reasons that LO is such a great forum to use. I've never come across unreasonable mod behaviour myself, but I've never really done anything that might annoy the mods. So really, my only experience of moderators has been as fellow posters rather than authority figures.

I think generally the current system works fine because on the whole the mods are professional and I think that If I were to make a complaint it would be listened to and dealt with fairly. Because of the moderator chain of command there's always a bigger fish you can go to if you have a complaint about a particular mod. Still I do see your point about not being able to know how the moderators are dealing with such complaints, and they may well find it more difficult to punish one of their own than a regular Joe poster, but I still feel that the right thing will be done in the end.
 

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The Landlord
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5,750 Posts
In the past we used to have very young mods on a powertrip, that might be a problem, but I dont think we have that anymore, but if you have complaints about a mod and/or his actions then just send me a pm and I will deal with it

I set up the supervisors a few years ago where their primary task was not to moderate, but to make sure the mods did not abuse their powers and to think of new stuff that could make the community better! Moderation was a secondary task or none :)
 

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King of Librarium's Tombs
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7,143 Posts
Cyric, are chat mdoerators also decided by the whole chat moderator team or is that just Blackhat and Stoney choosing? I think we need new mods appointed soon, as most of the time there isn't one around, or the ones that are, well they are totally useless as they aren't around. SOmetimes we get active mods depends really.

EDIT - Also, can we get an active mod actually in the Marine forums, as well I report a few threads to mods regularly, and well, I haven't seen a mod there for awhile.
Chat mods are somewhat separate to the forum, they are chosen by the chat mods and admins at the time, in a similar way to the team decisions made for forum mods. If the mods think its fine, then nothing more needs to be done right now in terms of recruitment. As it says in the forum rules, ''dont ask, we'll ask you'' (or something to that effect lol)

As for reported threads, there isnt always necessarily a mod assigned to each forum, but any reported threads can be acted upon by the relevant threads. If no action is taken, that is due to the decision of the mods not to act. In no way are we ignoring you, we always take notice and just act accordingly :)

As for the original point of this thread, the actions of one should not be used to try and ''undermine'' (for want of a better word... could use a thesaurus here lol) the rest. Moderators act accordingly dependant upon the situation, but we are only human after all, and as a result we do make mistakes. I have done so on occasions, but in hindsight i do my best to fix things and hope that all involved can move on in a positive manner. I imagine that many fellow mods would do the same, and as such if you ever have an issue with any action taken, feel free to send a PM and disciss things. As long as you are willing to listen then its ok (occasionally we get PMs from people hellbent on causing an uproar without any hope for negotiation).

Phew,, gone on for a while, i appollogise for that, but finally, if things cannot be resolved at one level, just work your way up as said (Mods -> SuperMods -> Supervisiors -> Admin(s)) follow this and things often get resolved a lot faster and easie for all concerned, rather than just running in head first and sending a PM straight to Blackhat.

Thank you for your time :)
 

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Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
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2,642 Posts
Cyric, are chat mdoerators also decided by the whole chat moderator team or is that just Blackhat and Stoney choosing? I think we need new mods appointed soon, as most of the time there isn't one around, or the ones that are, well they are totally useless as they aren't around. SOmetimes we get active mods depends really.

EDIT - Also, can we get an active mod actually in the Marine forums, as well I report a few threads to mods regularly, and well, I haven't seen a mod there for awhile.
As Pickle said, Chat is kind of a separate entity at this point. I have little dealings in there, but I'll give it a look.

I want to clarify something; I have no resentment towards the Mod team as a whole. I think that the majority of Mods on this forum do a fantastic job. My problem is with a small minority of Mods (and no I am not going to name them because this is not meant to be a name and shame exercise).
I apologize for misunderstanding you.

I have a real problem with Mods who admonish us for certain behaviours and then do exactly the same thing themselves, also they basically make it obvious that they have a problem with you personally and base any decision on these personal feelings rather than taking an impartial stance.
I have a problem with this myself. This is one of the very things I watch for, though I cannot be in all places at all times. This (as well as the awesome movie coming out soon) was the reason for my user title.

And there is the problem 'the entire team' I know from experience that reported problems with Mods (or disputes about decisions of Mods) are discussed by the Mod team (all levels), how can this be fair?
Not all problems are discussed with the entire team, to be honest. Depending on the level and severity of the issue, they are sometimes discussed privately. It really depends on what the issue is.

How can a complaint about a Mod be discussed fairly by the Mod team (no matter who)? It is like letting the defence in trial decide if the person they are defending (and who is paying them) is guilty. We need an impartial party separate from the day to day Mod team who can look at both sides fairly and make decisions.
Simply put, creating another level of accountability is just creating more loopholes. All it would do is transfer the power from one set of people to another. If the members do not trust the people with the power to hold mods accountable, then this is something we must deal with. However, creating different people with the power doesn't solve the problem - after all, what happens if you don't trust them either? Who watches the watchmen? The watchmen do. This comes back to the higher standard of behavior you mentioned - this is the moderator version of Plato's "noble lie". If you feel that this level has been breached, the other Supervisors and I are here to deal with such issues. And as always, Blackhat is an option if you feel your issue has not been properly addressed.
 

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Advocatus Diaboli
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4,571 Posts
The assumption that moderators are a bit cliquey or part of a club would be a falsehood.

If a moderator does wrong, it makes the rest look bad as well as the forum - and admins and the like step in to ensure that doesn't happen.

I've worked within a similar system on another forum, being an admin charged to deal with complaints against members of the team. I have found that system does work and is not riven by some sort of clubby attitude.

And there's also the fact that most of us don't really 'know' each other properly. I've met a couple, but most of the rest are just fellow posters on the web. That tends to help with an objective assessment.
 

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The deep down truth
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5,714 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
If you have a problem with a mod just pm a supervisor, it's not exactly rocket science
Ok that is fine I am going to PM a supervisor with the recent problems I have had and we will see what happens.

I just want to get one thing straight here though, this is not just a thread of complaint, I have noticed some things about the moderation (and not just Mods but supervisors as well) that need addressing and they need addressing because this is one of the finest forums on the net and I want it to stay that way. This is not a petty vendetta or my running crying because I feel wronged; it is a sincere attempt to point out some double standards in certain people’s behaviour. I have been admonished for my behaviour in the past and I fully accept that and my responsibility for said behaviour. But the same should apply to EVERY single member of this forum from top to bottom, no exceptions

Thank you for all the feed back and honest answers.
 

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Sadomachiatto
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7,076 Posts
Rikimaru,

I'm gonna answer your questions straight up an honest, mainly because I'm also a member of LO and I feel like I have a right too :)

(1) Has anyone else been the recipient of unacceptable behaviour from Mods?
On one occasion - yes.
Although it was resolved thanks to another member intervening. That particular moderator stepped down and was subsequently removed.
It damaged my opinion of LO for... maybe 2 or 3 days.
I even considered leaving, and putting up one of those awful 'I'm going goodbye! *flounce*' threads.

But... I get bored easily, so I didn't.

(2) Does anyone else think that the present system for reporting abuse of Mod powers (is there one) is ineffectual and ineffective?
I have personally investigated one moderator who's judgement was called into question. They were put on the spot and both side's arguments were fully heard.
To me that would be a system, and to me it worked.

Please bear in mind that, even if you call a mod's judgement into question, that doesn't automatically mean you are right.
In this circumstance the evidence I received was highly coloured, and it was only when I looked into matters fully that I saw the full picture.

In short, my decision was based on the facts of what occured - nothing more.
You can expect at least this standard from every single one of the team.

(3) Can anyone actually tell me what the system for reporting a Mod is?
It sounds cheesy... but seek and you shall find. I mean... not all of us are gonna get angry at this question right? You say yourself that the vast majority do a good job, so if you don't know - please just ask us :) There has to be an element of trust afterall.

There's no formal forms to be filled in, or an application form or ticket system. It's just about clear lucid communication with other people.
(4) Who moderated the Mods?
Who ever is higher up. I've had my share of being told off when I've been out of line, and in turn I've occasionally called others into question too.

We moderate ourselves.

I appreciate that a lot of this post is rehashing information and the like... but I take this kinda stuff seriously. We're not all programmed like machines, there's not a holy book with laws we have to follow to the letter.

So, i guess you could say that there is no 'system'... but this isn't a government or a democracy or anything like that.

So I'll counter and say that: calm, clear honest and polite communications are the way to go forward and get results.
 

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I've had enough!
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2,041 Posts
Moderator / Supermoderator / Supervisor / Admin
Hmm...I thought it went Moderator / Supermoderator / Supervisor / Admin / Veteran. That explains a lot :p

On topic, I haven't really had any problems with Mods, though I don't surf too many different forums anymore - it's pretty much all fantasy. I've run into my share of trouble, particulary when I first started, coz this was the first Forum site for Warhammer I ever visited and joined, but it's been handled pretty well.

Tim
 
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