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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hey guys, Necron player here, but I thought I'd mention a recent finding to you Greenskins:

A friend and I were playing a game yesterday and ran into a Mob Rule conundrum. The Deceiver has a special ability that allows him to cause even Fearless troops to make a leadership roll. Generally, no leadership may go above ten. However, my friend argued that his orks essentially could have leadership 30, due to being able to replace their leadership value with their unit size.

I read a little while ago on here that the general LO consensus is that this is flawed and they count as leadership 10 in this scenario.

I would just like to set this straight, as we called GW over the matter, and they informed us that Orks do, essentially, use unit size instead of leadership, meaning they have the most absolutely fearless troops in the game.

Seems kinda cheese to me, but that's the ruling.
 

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Remember that the game works on a scale of 0-10 with ten being the highest your stats can be. While the ork mob rule says that orks replace their leadership value with their mob size, the highest allowed stat is still ten. (I believe that since the ork codex makes no clarification as to whether or not you can go above ten, you would use the rulebook for that and the rulebook says that stats are no higher than ten; when it comes to things like leadership and other non vehicle stats.)
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Remember that the game works on a scale of 0-10 with ten being the highest your stats can be. While the ork mob rule says that orks replace their leadership value with their mob size, the highest allowed stat is still ten. (I believe that since the ork codex makes no clarification as to whether or not you can go above ten, you would use the rulebook for that and the rulebook says that stats are no higher than ten; when it comes to things like leadership and other non vehicle stats.)
Nope, that's what I thought, too.

But we actually called the direct service line to GW's motherbrain. The ruling is that they replace leadership with unit size. So 17 Orks essentially have ld17.
 

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IIRC, they may substitute their numbers for leadership in the case of when they are "forced" to take checks; not when they choose to. I'd have to reread the codex to verify, but their size wouldn't allow them to ignore such things as target priority or psychic mind wars and the like.

It simply makes them effectively fearless when faced with opposition. As I mentioned in the other thread, Fearless units don't get to automatically bypass target priority, so there's no reason the mechanics work on every single leadership test in the game.

And as stated, the maximum stat in the game is always 10. But that doesn't really affect this argument as far as I can see.
 

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As stated on p. 12, no characteristic may go above 10. Ever. Under any circumstance. The mob rule says that units with more than 11 are considered fearless, true, but that doen'y change their ld cap of 10.

Just like a weird boy in a mob takes his pyschic tests on ald up to 10. Can't auto pass, can't claim ld 30. Max of 10.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
IIRC, they may substitute their numbers for leadership in the case of when they are "forced" to take checks; not when they choose to. I'd have to reread the codex to verify, but their size wouldn't allow them to ignore such things as target priority or psychic mind wars and the like.

It simply makes them effectively fearless when faced with opposition. As I mentioned in the other thread, Fearless units don't get to automatically bypass target priority, so there's no reason the mechanics work on every single leadership test in the game.

And as stated, the maximum stat in the game is always 10. But that doesn't really affect this argument as far as I can see.
They can choose to substitute numbers for leadership at any time. The codex does not specify them being forced to do so.

This substitution of numbers is kind of odd, because they're not really changing their leadership stat itself, they're making a check against unit size. This is what allows them to exceed leadership ten. They're swapping the required stat for the check, not changing the value of the stat. So with enough numbers, on a check of 2d6, they cannot fail.

Again, this is GW's ruling, not mine.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
As stated on p. 12, no characteristic may go above 10. Ever. Under any circumstance. The mob rule says that units with more than 11 are considered fearless, true, but that doen'y change their ld cap of 10.

Just like a weird boy in a mob takes his pyschic tests on ald up to 10. Can't auto pass, can't claim ld 30. Max of 10.
Squad size is a stat that can exceed ten, and that's the stat they use for mob rule, not leadership.
 

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Again, check the rules. LD is capped at ten. no more. period. The mob rule is very specific in what it says. It may grant fearless for squads of 12 or more, but leadership by definition is capped at 10. again, feel free to read the page ref for characteristics. p 12 IIRC.


Oh, and welcome to the boards!

On a side note, please realise that GW can't answer in an official matter outside of PDFs or books. their support line is manned by monkeys. Call and ask them 5 more times and you'll get 7 more answers that differ.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I am not saying I like this
I HAVE checked the rules
I am not saying you are exceeding 10 ld
I am saying you are using your SQUAD SIZE in PLACE of your leadership
I called Games Workshop and asked this question, and this is THEIR ruling, NOT mine
 

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I am not saying I like this
I HAVE checked the rules
I am not saying you are exceeding 10 ld
I am saying you are using your SQUAD SIZE in PLACE of your leadership
I called Games Workshop and asked this question, and this is THEIR ruling, NOT mine
As was said to you before, an official GW ruling only comes in a printed form. Note that it is called a "help" line and not a "ruling" line. Its purpose is to give you an quick answer so that you may carry on gaming.

Not to be a starch-arse or anything, but could ya please use punctuation?
 

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I am not saying I like this
I HAVE checked the rules
I am not saying you are exceeding 10 ld
I am saying you are using your SQUAD SIZE in PLACE of your leadership
I called Games Workshop and asked this question, and this is THEIR ruling, NOT mine
Lol. I'll check this with GW tomorrow again. It seems kind of silly to me.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
As was said to you before, an official GW ruling only comes in a printed form. Note that it is called a "help" line and not a "ruling" line. Its purpose is to give you an quick answer so that you may carry on gaming.

Not to be a starch-arse or anything, but could ya please use punctuation?
There was a comma in there!

(Also, my period key is only working intermittently)
 

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I would tell you that in In-Store tournament games this came up last week, and the store rule was that Leadship 10 was the highest you could have.

The help desk is that, a help desk. It is not the design studio.

So tell your friend, that your Undead Star Eating God makes Orks poo their already stained clothing.

But well noticed conundrum.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I would tell you that in In-Store tournament games this came up last week, and the store rule was that Leadship 10 was the highest you could have.

The help desk is that, a help desk. It is not the design studio.

So tell your friend, that your Undead Star Eating God makes Orks poo their already stained clothing.

But well noticed conundrum.
Thanks.
I didn't really want to get into an argument with anyone over it.
I just figured that the GW employees would be a little more than just store folks at a phone.

I do hope there's an official clarification soon, because I called the desk a second time tonight and got the same answer, but if your in-store guys are disagreeing with that, then this whole Mob Rule situation must baffle everybody.
 

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As said, the printed rule is crystal clear, no characteristic can raise above 10. Look at a dreadnaughts strength-6*2=10 Plain and simple.

The help desk is not official-ask them this:

Since the rulebook says that characteristics cap at 10, eventhough I have a squad of boys of 20, I still roll all tests at ld 10, besides being fearless right?

Or ask them if you have to take a priority check even if you are fearless-chances are they will say no, which is plain and out wrong.

Or ask them if you roll snake eyes on a difficult terrain test but are 4" away from terrain, can you move the 4" instead, which is also wrong.
 

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Or ask them if you roll snake eyes on a difficult terrain test but are 4" away from terrain, can you move the 4" instead, which is also wrong.
Did they change that for fourth edition? 3rd said you could move up to the terrain. Seems silly if your last inch of possible movement means you can't move more than 2" (on a double 1).

I can see where the OP is coming from, but it does seem that tarzen is right. Not purely for his stubbornness but if you read the mob rule it states "Ork mobs may always choose to substitute the number of orks in their mob for their normal leadership value," so you aren't in fact making a "mob check" it is still a leadership test and so restricted by the " max stat of 10" rule.

And don't beat down on the call center GW staff, they do their best to help. They are only human, and after all, when my old ork battleforce had no small wheels they sent me all the wheels for the box, not just small ones (yay for free stuff!!!!)
 

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"Did they change that for fourth edition? 3rd said you could move up to the terrain. Seems silly if your last inch of possible movement means you can't move more than 2" (on a double 1)."

yeah, and you can only move the 1" (take the highest of the two, unless beasts assaulting through cover, then highestX2.

The direct wording is that you approach cautiously...

And not bagging on the GW staff, but they are not official as far as rules goes. They intend well, but miss more rules than they get right, in all honesty. As far as customer support goes, I've only had 1 major problem and I got the third degree about getting another lictor leg sent, so I personally don't have good thoughts about them.
 

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As said, the printed rule is crystal clear, no characteristic can raise above 10. Look at a dreadnaughts strength-6*2=10 Plain and simple.
Tell a chaos lord with a demon weapon and a mark of khorne that he can't have more than 10 attacks. Go ahead, I dare you. I've been hit by one with 13 attacks before and it's very much legal. But yah, other stats can't go above 10.
 

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it's not legal. They intended it to have more attacks, but by 4th edition rules, he only gets 10. Now come fifth edition, which THAT CODEX WAS WRITTEN FOR, you'll be in business. As it sits now, 10 is the max, just like th old solitare.
 

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it's not legal. They intended it to have more attacks, but by 4th edition rules, he only gets 10. Now come fifth edition, which THAT CODEX WAS WRITTEN FOR, you'll be in business. As it sits now, 10 is the max, just like th old solitare.
Interesting thought. Say for arguments sake you have some uber nasty guy that has 10 Attacks. Would they not gain +1 for charging? No +1 for 2 weapons? Interesting thought.
 
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