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Master of the Universe
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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
The following is a list of things that could be considered generalizations about the Tyranid Hive, and why I do or don't agree. Feel free to pick apart anything I write and shoot it down, as long as you give fair reason.

1) CC MC's really get a terrible reputation from many players. Some people call them too "slow," because they only get the standard move, and not some fleet crap. But, if you think about it, they aren't any slower than many of the other really good CC units in other armies. For example, Abaddon the Despoiler, one of the best Chaos CC models, only moves as fast as a Carnifex, but no one pegs him for being slow. (I realize MC's are their own units, but they are so Hulking that they can soak up tons of damage before reaching CC.)

2) 2x scything talons on flying Tyrants are well overrated. If you gave the same tyrant one set of talons, and say, a Venom Canon, it would get at least three shots in with the canon before it reached close combat, maybe even six (assault x). Even better, give it 2 sets of twin-linked devourers, and let it get 12-24 shots in 1-2 turns.

3) Lictors really get the shaft from players who proxied them once, and used them to take on a squad of space marines, or something else senseless like that. Save Lictors for use on more important models in an opponents army, like snipers, dreadnoughts, tanks, or something like that. (I've taken out my brothers broadside with a Lictor before, so don't degrade their usefulness.)

4) Those who abandon Gaunts fail to see how effective they really are. Think about it like this; If you have 24 Gaunts in an army, all with fleshborers, thats only 144 points worth of 'Nids. Seeing as Gaunts are one of the biggest distractors/ fire soakers in 40k, thats a pretty sweet deal. Plus, you get a squad of Hormagaunts to rush behind your Gaunts, and all of a sudden your enemy is locked into close combat with a swarm of taloned devils.

Thats about it, so comment away, and feel free to add more to my misconception list, if you want.
 

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Welcome waterbuster! Thanks for joining our boards. A small request for future dates, if you can, when posting, please add to the topic or advance the discussion. Simple +1 posts are great for chatting but don't really help much. If you have any questions, feel free to ask any of the members, mods, or admins, we're more than happy to help out.

As for me, I think most of your post just screams playstyle.

Personally, Lictors suck for me. I think they are a complete and total waste of points for anything other than escalation (even then, it's the reroll that's worthwhile, not the unit). Total crap save, die if DS on a unit, and low number of attacks for a high cost unit?

CC carnies can be avoided, meaning that if you are lucky, they will see action on turn 5 or 6. Abbadon and others can hop in transports, thus getting a turn 3 CC. The other downside to CC fex is their low number of attacks and how easily they die to hidden or even normal powerfists. Add in the fact that a shooty fex will be effective from turn 1, and well, you kinda see why some think CC fex are junk. (I won't even mention escalation, which means they don't get to fight at all).

CC flyrant is again a playstyle issue. Seeing as a CC flyrant will be seeing action turn 2, and since you want him in CC, giving him the extra attacks is usually a great thing, along with TM, and implant so you can cream IC's. Considering he'll kill any non harliquin/banshee/wytch, GS unit on the charge, he's really great for freaking your opponent into spending a ton of fire and energy to bring him down. On the flip side, having a shooty tyrant means you can kill from afar or as preperation for the charge. the downside to a full devilrant loadout is that you stand a HUGE chance of killing too many models, or breaking the unit, before you charge in, leaving your poor tyrant out in the middle of the deadzone.

As for the gaunts, I concur, that fleshgaunts are fantastic for what they bring to the table. they can shoot down armour 10, kill toughness 7, and are great for taking objectives. I wouldn't suggest running hormies behind them since hormies are faster...

Just a couple of thoughts.
 

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Welcome to the board. Here are my reponses to your questions or thoughts.

1) CC fexs are slow so they do not earn there points back most of the time. It is much easier to run 2xtl devs on them.I run one once in while just to be different. But in 5th edition maybe they will make a come back due to new movement rule.

2) I perfer the flying 2xtl devs Hive Tryant to good to pass up 12 shots with reoll misses and wounds plus what is left I will charge it with 4 attacks. So compare to the 2xst flying hive tryant I agree.

3) Lictors can go well if you support them. You need more than one or you get fast units to help you with the unit lictors attack. Plus they will help you out in escalation missions.

4) I run anywhere from 2 to 3 units with 20-24 gaunts in it. They will soak up fire and hold down a unit if they are in snapase until my good stuff get there like genestealers. I perfer spinegaunts with increase ws over fleshbores same price. The fleshbores work good against landspeeders if you can get them in range.
 

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Welcome! Couple thoughts on your thoughts. :)

1) Here's the "catch". You're comparing GOOD CC units to a CC carnifex. Take any GOOD CC unit against a CC carnifex and the good unit will win. Given our armies overall land speed, IE: pretty darn fast, than the carnifex really is one of our slowest units. Anyway, a lumbering CC fex will get shot at allot. A good player will just shoot it down with some AT weapons and it will be dead. It will never reach the enemy. I'd rather not give free VPs to my opponent unless its gaunts.

2) I'm kind of curious why you're praising the CC fex in one line and than slamming the CC flyrant in the next. The CC flyrant has all of the positives that a CC fex "could" have plus solves most of its issues. Higher Init, faster speed, just to name a few. Opponents will laugh at a CC fex and fear a CC flyrant. Now if you really want to put guns on a flyrant, don't go with a venom cannon. The benifit of the VC is you don't need to be all that close. Put a pair of TW devourers on the flyrant and let the shots fly.

3) Lictors have a use. However they are a scalpel, not a hammer. With that said, sure they have some good uses. However in general games you're pretty much sitting there hoping your opponent will give you a window of use for them. Personally I prefer taking raveners instead. More versitile and can serve the role of lictor-lite if needed.

4) Personally I love gaunts. Most nid players love gaunts. Spinegaunts are the core of many armies. I also love hormagaunts. The only downfall of gaunts is that they aren't as "flashy" or as powerful as bigger bugs. Many people like to go for the big guns over the little guys.
 

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Dark Eldar Gerbil
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1) Other races are faster than tyranids because they get transports and DS. Without these things i would agree with you. For instance if Abaddon stays in a LR for one turn then he moves 14" which is the same as 2 1/2 CCfex turns. Also 5 attacks on the charge from a CCfex is not great as you will only hit 1/2 the time unless you are spending way too many points on it.

2)Can't disagree with oyu here unless you are running a CC list, in which case a CCrant would be a good buy because you can stay in combat and have a higher likelyhood of winning it and cause follow up damage through outnumbering or breaking moral

3) I haven't proxied a lictor or used one so i can't comment, except for the fact they don't seem worthwhile as you won't get the charge often enough. Scare factor seems good though.

4)one interesting stat that was pointed out to me the other day about termagaunts. Against MEQ they do the same amount of damage as the same pointed amount of warriors with ES. TS. and twin devs albetit at a shorter range. This is in fact a lot of damage and you will probably see a fair few of them in my lists now (this is both a mixture of usefulness and the fact that from a box i make 8 spines and 8 termas, terma homies look cool)
 

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There isn't really much that I can say that hasn't been said. Remember, though, that Tyranids allow players an incredibly diverse list. This is why I branched out from Tau. Tau philosophy is that you're either static fireline and dead, or fully mechanized with three hammerheads, plenty of crisis and fishes of fury. I actually just made six lists today so that when I play my friend (who very much likes to specialize) I can roll a d6 and use the list it lands on. These six lists boiled down to an army of hormagaunts and winged warriors with plenty of goodies, a Genestealer army, a spineguant/warrior army featuring over 200 models, nidzilla, ranged (devourgaunts anyone?), and varied (all units are good at something, why not have all of them?).

Tyranids are very much an army that is up to the individual. Look at all of the options available to just one unit choice! What to take on that broodlord, and acid maw or implant attack? Do I want a lot of vanilla hormaguants or not as many superhormies? With Tyranids, the possibilities are practically endless.

This being said, on the forum we're always discussing our new ideas, and we come up with lots of useful strategies and thoughts that help each other out. One such thought, that the pure CCfex is not useful, is quite legitimate. In terms of earning its points back versus other units, it's not very effective, but it certainly is an indomitable unit when given every upgrade, and having several such models lumbering across the table certainly is a fearsome sight. I think, if I were taking on to simply hold an objective, it would perform wonderfully. Unfortunately, the carnifex isn't an offensive close combat unit. Winged warriors, hormagaunts, SM bikers and assault squads, they all get into their combat zones much more efficiently and are more effective against non-close combat oriented squads. And in terms of literally earning its points back, close combat carnifex don't do the job, unless they've got land raiders in assault range or they're fighting other monstrous creatures. Players often make lists with the idea that each unit will make its points value back over the course of the game.

I'm too tired to say more, and everyone else has said pretty much what I would tell you anyways. Just remember, it's not because we hate your units, we just use them differently.
 

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1) CC Monstrous creatures, who can only walk normal speed, are often avoided like the plague. Once one puts it on the table, you'll notice a dramatic shift in your opponents army. His anti tank units will lock onto these guys, all the while every other units start evading the CC MC. This is what makes CC Fexes, but also models like the Nightbringer and Deceiver (Necrons) or CC Dreads (Chaos, Blood Angels), less attractive to most.
Some could use this to their advantage, and use them as sheepdogs, herding your opponent to a certain place, which is a viable tactics for most armies, driving them into a less good spot then in which they were before.
CC fexes in particular, have only a small amounts of attact, and are often striking last in combat too! Particular that last part is bad in our army. I think CC Fexes would be great it they could attack at say I3 of even 4, the sad thing is, they don't.
And to contrast this to the gunfex, which is able to start his killing in turn 1, instead of say turn 4 or even turn 5 for CC fexes. The big guns on the gunfex, are our reliable weapons agianst heavy armor, and a big threat for some multi wound units. (if I miss my armor save, I'll be losing my Broadside!!! :0). This is why most of us, uncluding me, prefer Shooting Fexes over CC fexes.
(Also please note, you probably can't shoot an Abbadon the Despoiler, because of his Indipendant Character status, and being size 2, which makes an Abbadon superior to our CC fex)

2) 2 ST is just play style, of people who like to get the most of their units. I hate it when people say Whip&Blade sucks, but I can see why people like to take 2 CC mods rather than a 1 ST and gun. In assault, you can't use your gun, and when not in assault, you can't use the HT AWESOMENESS in CC. It's pretty much like Min-Maxing your units, and this works especially well for Tnids.

3) Lictors are quite expensive, and unreliable Assasins. They don't have that many attacks, though they still have rending, it isn't quite as effective on paper. The improved cover save is a boon, but isn't helping in CC, in which he's actually quite vulnreable. He needs to DS into area terrain and when using the charge, you will be probably charging something that is also in cover, meaning it will attack at same I as the Lictor. This robs his of his great I stat, and because of his low save, modest T, and 2 wounds, he would probably get killed in the prosses of taking out the target.
Still, Lictors are great for Escalation misions, in which you will be able to get the units on board you really want on board asap, like your flying HT or gunfexes! Still, I think their a bit to expensive for this purpose, and I like the 3rd ed Lictor more than the 4th ed.

4) gaunts rule! 8X But I can also see the points of wanting to field only MC, just because you can! Gaunts are really good troops, they are plentyful, can hurt your opponent who doesn't want to shoot them, and hurt them too when they do! (because they didn't shoot the hormagants, which in turn made sure the genestealers survive!)
 

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1) CC MCs aren't always bad, just the carnifex. The Hive Tyrant (especially the winged version) and the Red Terror are exceptiona close combat monstrous creatures. The problem, of course, is a number of variables, but it's generally said that the carnifex's lack of a decent (or any) invul save causes it to be defenseless against the 8-wound powerfist wielded by the SMurf seargent with terminator honors and a pistol that goes at the same time as the carnifex. The carnifex is slow both on the table and in intiative (at least terminators get to deepstrike--always get to deepstrike; did you hear that, Mr. Useless Broodlord?), and not worth it when even standard squad leaders can take it out in a round or two. Generally, carnifexes are useful as long-range fire support (especially since our weapons will rarely, if ever, penetrate) and our small gribblies to overrun squads and absorb wounds.

2) One of the typical strategies for MCs, especially for flying tyrants is to fly into a squad, clear the killzone (so it won't be smushed by powerweapons) and cause your opponents to lose combat which either causes them to flee (which seems to be happening less and less...) or, in the case of marines and fearless things, move into you and take the armor saves from being outnumbered, all without costing your Tyrant a thing, and it's quite likely that you will wipe out the squad in the next CC round, which happens to protect your flyrant from being shot to pieces at close range. While this doesn't always happen, you can clearly see the advantages of hoping your flyrant around cover (to hide it) before flying over and assault over flying out into the open, shooting, getting shot at, then assault and not having enough attacks to clear the killzone then get smashed by a powerfist from a squad that's half the cost of your flyrant.

And, of course, the VC would add 25-30 more points cost onto your Tyrant :p

3) What about people who used lictors more than once? People who *liked* lictors? People who really, really wanted to like lictors, but woops, couldn't use them! They either failed to come in when needed, or died because the enemy was all over the cover (Tau) and you scattered into them? Lictors are extremely expensive and usually a one-shot weapon. They're strong, and can rend, but sometimes that's not enough. A lot of vehicles now are skimmers, or...fast skimmers, which means meleeing them isn't a great idea. They're really only worth it against things that like to sit out of range or out of sight and pelt you the whole game like basilisks, or against things with weak rear armor (like leman russ's or predators or exorcists), or just against things that generally suck in CC altogether (like...Tau). Sure, they can perform exceptionally, but like the broodlord, it's too chaotic and chancey and WAY too expensive for it to more-than-likely, do nothing.

4) I've yet to see an army that didn't include gaunts that wasn't a dedicated genestealer cheese list. We're all fully aware of how cheap and devilishly effective gaunts are (or were, seeing the new cheapies given to Orks and Eldar). Of course, hormagaunts generally suck hard against anything as fast as (or faster than) them or tougher than a normal humans, which means they're really only good in the place of more spinegaunts against...oh, IG and Sisters of Battle, and maybe against Tau...without Kroot.
 

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A) There's Tactical value to having a sheepdog 'fex. At 115 points for an elite 'fex in a large game, it can really change a course of a re-deployment. May not even be that good, but that bugger is scary. Bullets directed at it mean fewer at things that can't afford to be shot at much. And forcing movement to avoid it means you're controlling your opponent. Keep playing like that and you crush them. While it doesn't mathematically optimize, it has a certain incalculable value that could equal some value of the troops not shot to death. Or just call it mobile cover.

B) Have to agree with the MC tactics wholeheartedly.

C) Lictors, likewise, have they're uses, but use 'em right. Keep guys off guard, and bounce. I hit an run from one unit to the next, like some Zoidberg-faced hooligan. Rend a marine or two, dash into cover, repeat. Sow chaos, a little backfield mess, mess up some snipers, bound on some broadsides. Possibilities are endless, really. Just takes practice and the expectation that their actual payback may not be as high as the psychological one.

D) Guants have something others do not: numbers! Make sure you outnumber when you attack, as opposed to table coverage. Hitting everyone isn't needed, tarpit them, pin them, ignore them, but isolating and crushing with superior numbers is really the best way to go wth 'nids. And there's the mobility to make it really easy.
 

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If I'm going to have a fex for under 115, it's going to have dual twin-linked devourers and +1BS. It actually poses a threat to the enemy. It's been about 2 years since I've seen anyone worry over a CC fex where I play. 8X
 

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Well I'd agree that CC fexes usually will not kill there points worth, but ive played a couple of games where it saved twice its worth soaking up hits. In a 1500+ game i might run one, just because i have it and i dont like proxies, and I pump it defence up a little, no save of course, and it usually takes 8+ Tankkiller shots. There have been games where they've completely avoided it though, and it never got into combat the entire game. I usually would use it primarily against necrons, since the monoliths are so frikkin annoying. I immobilize it then run up to it and blow it up ez.

Lictors, well ive never used them and actually have them kill more than 1 unit. I've only played against necrons, imperial guard, and dark eldar though. I can see how a lictor would wreak havok on a poor sqad of fire warriors though8Y

CC Flyrants... I used it once, and it died to a sqad of broad sides...;? Well it only had one wound left, but still that should'nt happen. I've had a dakkaflyrant kill a lord of change in one shooting phase before. I think dakkaflyrants are better.

Gaunts... well i love gaunts. They don't do anything!!! but if they get close enough, they can actually hurt things pretty bad. I love spine gaunts, personally, i like them more than termagaunts. I like TL more than LA.
 

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CC fexes are amazing for defending objectives. Give them the proper upgrades and they can tear through enemies easily, especially with some friendly rippers to help them get the charge off. It dosent matter that theyre slow when the enemy is forced to come to them.
 
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