my waaagh is consistintly crushed by BT space marines.. help!

yes, im sure the BT can take a predator, i read his codex. Well the main problem is that i have to few boyz and after the initial charge they get their arses handed to them by the lunatic BT marines of doom. The reason i take a Big Mek is i wanted to get a warboss on bike but i dont have the money to get the parts yet. And yes ive tried footsloggers but then he just takes 3 shooting squads with heavy bolters and mows down everything befor they get there. I have been using cover (turbo boosting trukks and stuff) and recently weve started playing 25% terrain (after i forced my friend into it) He really plays the game because he is a really good stratigist and studys historys many battle tactics, in fact the reason hes Black Templar is because they represents the knights templar. Hes really good at the game and way more of a strategist then i am. I defintly need more tankbusting first of off, if i can get his squads entangled and charge with multiple squads of trukk boyz (mabye dropping the nob and adding a burna to each squad) that might help kill some marines. The deff kopta mek/super stickbomb and burna combo i hear works wonders. Mabye i should give my big mek a burna to go along with a squad of burna boyz? Cause i can see burnas as being the best weapon against BT due to its power weaponess. He only really doesnt use neophytes (he only has 5) so his squads are mostly gods. The one effective time i beat him was when i blew up his LRC got his guys entnangled, shot him up with big shootas on trukks, since he takes the hit on +3 vow force him to charge my trukks (the vow also states that he must charge anything that he can, that includes vehicles) then get out and power weapon him with burnas. Is there anything besides the things ive mentioned that i should trie.

Ok lets see.

1.) I agree completely with nolifeking, if he is taking units based on what you take then he is already claiming an unfair advantage over you as his army is designed to take out your army list...mind you not your army...teh actual list you wrote. Hell if I had that ability every time I played I would be all wins category. His list and your list should be written independent of each other, and only shown to the other player at the tables.

2.) If you are playing a friend and are low on cash ask him if you can proxy in some things. Now don't go the extreme that everyone jokes about of this toy car is my battlewagon and these pennies are my grotz. But attempt a decent effort towards proxying a model to as close to a WYSIWYG model. If he is a friend, and you are playing at a house or club, he should not mind. If you are playing at a store you might run into problems

3.) Some tactics I have used against my friends BT army versus my Bad moons

-Shooting needs to be controlled. BT get to advance when they take casualties, shooting three different units causes him to move three units forward. Shooting one unit over and over till its dead will cause only one unit to advance via their zeal rule and leave the rest of the army that many steps back. Use his zeal rule to further seperate his units from the main force.

-Trukk boys. I also take 3 trukk boyz squads usually 8 boyz big. Trukk gets a rokkit, boyz get a burna. A common tactic I will use is to turbo boost my trukks up his nose, turning them to their longest dimension (my trukks are made of old MK1 Rhino bodies with some add ones os I get some decent lenght out of them) and form a wall of three trucks in front of his shooting elements. Each trukk is nose to rear with each other. If the trukks live cool. If they crash and die fine. Either way you are forming a wall of steel that he can't see past and can't shoot you with. (Trukks are so fragile they should be thought of as more mobile terrain to block LOS then transports for important squads. As for the Rokkit a.) its cheaper B.) if they live through the turbo boost you have a nice AV shot out of the vehicle. For the Burna if the squad lives it allows you to charge up on a LRC and blow torch it open. (done it myself with some lucky rolls). Also this gives you some delay troops. Allows you to tie up units in a round of CC and further seperate his army. With choopas these guys can possibly take one or two marines down first turn. Possible more if you use the power weapon option on the burna.

- I personnally would stay away from batttlewagons. But if you do decide to go with them, use them as a tank and not a transport. Take a fully boated big shoota wagon. Then a squad of 10 grotz, Slaver gets hound (reroll morale) and big shoota. Then park the grotz int he wagon and get yourself 9 Big shoota shots out of a tank. THis allows you to field an inexpensive unit in your wagon that still is BS 2 but also means that if the wagon blows up you are not loosing expensive Ard Boyz, just grotz. But remember controlled shooting to seperate his units from the army. Blow up a whole squad. Ehh....next target

-Looted Leman Russ w/ plates. I know the are a dime a dozen, but they serve two great functions. 1.) Fire Magnet. 2.) If you do get a pie plate down. AP is high enough to whip out marine squads. Can't get them marines out of LRC, blow them out of it with ordance damage.

-Trouble with Dreads. My answer is always burna boyz. Why. Shooting is unreliable. but a squad of 4-5 burnas is a whole lot of AV damaging attacks. More likely to destroy it that way. Also BT dreads don't get zeal, so again easy to seperate from the main force.

Targe priority is a must alot of times. If he has foot squad and LRC squads. Work on the LRCs first. Use units to pen hit the squads out of the vehicle and then another unit to shoot them and make them zeal move away. Either the unit has to move the rest of hte game on foot way from his main force, or head back ot the LRC and loose a turn. If he leaves the LRC and he bought it for that squad then he will in turn not be allowed to use it for another squad as it was bought specifically for hte squad now on foot. Also by doing this his foot squads don't get zeal rolls as you have not shot at them and in turn they have to foot slog it across w/ no zeal rolls.

All in all these are just some of the things I use. The biggest thing to keep in mind aganist BTs is their zeal. This is a double edged sword to them. As it will allow their army if properly shoot at to be seperated into smaller pieces away from the main force and therefore easier to pick on with 2-3 swauds of choopa weilding orks.

My biggest problem is jump packs squads. These I usually soak with shots form my grot filled wagon.

Thats all for now. If you can think of anything I will check back later when I get off work.

A close-topped Tankbusta trukk or two might also work for anti-tank. Four rokkits, three ammo runts, plenty of bad attitude. A red paint job will let you zoom from cover to cover while unloading said rokkitz onto all those who oppose you. Couple that with some burnaboy drive-bys and you should be able to thin down his ranks. Then, if any of the TBs manage to survive, you can have them do drive-bys of the beakie squads.
I'm afraid I can't help you very much when it comes to KoS. Whenever I play BT, I tend to have my huntas shoot at the guys so they have to move closer to my Madboyz and skarboyz. But, then, I've got the ladz to back that up.
Cronk-Smash got it right about splitting them up as well. They're not as easy to control as World Eaters, but you can still get them to follow your boys around if you're crafty enough.
Also, stop letting him tailor his list to yours. Bad form.

well the reason he is able to tailor his list is that we always play at his house, and obviosuyl all of his minis are there so he can choose what he wants. He now came up with this crap that he can have a chaplain in a command squad without counting as an HQ, like how u can haev meks, doks and nobs in a warboss's command squad. So he can have 2 marshalls, 2 chaplains and an emprors champ? Thats 5 HQ's! no way that doesnt sound fair at all. He also wont let me proxy anything because his parents buy him everything but i dont have the money so..like i scartch built two warrtruks and he wouldnt let me use them in since they are not "offical models." He also woudlnt let me make a deff kopta mek with no legs who has a wheel on a base placed horizontily and a gauss rod through his torso to support him (hey i thought it looked cool) Well anyway i was thinking of looting my brothers vokswagon model car to make a buggy but my friend said it would look retarted. THe only reason i play with him is cause hes my best friend and my other friends hate to play me because i slaughter them most of the time. Well thanks for the help guys, also i haven't played him in a full scale game (like not combat patrol) and one on one since he found out he in fact can't assault out of rhinos (hes the only one of us who owns a rulebook because im not going to spend 50 bucks to get one) Well once again, thanks for the advice, i need to wipe the floor with him now so he can stop being arrogent :shifty:

Hmmm

1. His use of Chappie in Command squad is an abuse of the rules and down right wrong. His own codex says he can't do that as though the chappie can be attached to a command squad, he still counts as a actual HQ choice. His example of how its like we can take meks and doks is off. Our meks and dok models in our command squad are like his apothecary and standard bearers. They are part of the command squad. His Chappie would be like you able to take a Bik Mek or Big Dok. Which we all know can't be part of the squad without taking his own HQ slot.

2. If he won't let you proxy then it sounds like he really does not want to play you. People do it all the time amongst their friends. If he can't understand your financal bind, then don't play him till you do get the army to "his standards"

3. If he has the only copy of the rule book as him if you can borrow it. Refresh yourself on the rules so at least you know what the proper rules are. Hell borrow his codex if he does not mind. Tell him you are interested in the army and want to read up on them

4. Hate to say it. You will never win if he is not held to the rules of the game. Rules are there to be used, they are not suggestions. If he is not using hte rules that is just yet another unfair advantage he is trying to put on you.

Ohh another tactic I forgot to mention. P-Klaws in your ard boyz squads. With 4+ saves ard boyz can stick around for a while (1-2 turns). Used your nobz high A value and the +1 for Choopa - P-Klaw (don't take slugga PK because the choopa gives you a choice if you want a higher inniative attack then last place). But the Nobz P-klaw attacks will make quick work of squads and can hide in a sea of Ard boyz.

HavenDan said:

well the reason he is able to tailor his list is that we always play at his house, and obviosuyl all of his minis are there so he can choose what he wants. He now came up with this crap that he can have a chaplain in a command squad without counting as an HQ, like how u can haev meks, doks and nobs in a warboss's command squad. So he can have 2 marshalls, 2 chaplains and an emprors champ? Thats 5 HQ's! no way that doesnt sound fair at all.

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It hella isnt. Tell him to read his codex.

He also wont let me proxy anything because his parents buy him everything but i dont have the money so..like i scartch built two warrtruks and he wouldnt let me use them in since they are not "offical models." He also woudlnt let me make a deff kopta mek with no legs who has a wheel on a base placed horizontily and a gauss rod through his torso to support him (hey i thought it looked cool) Well anyway i was thinking of looting my brothers vokswagon model car to make a buggy but my friend said it would look retarted.

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Every 40k player should know that orks are licensed to convert over all other armies. It's just... something that is. Hell, there is no 'official model' for the dethkopta, or even the trusty battlewagon! Test him by taking a scratch-built battlwagon and, if he claims its unfair, tell him that there is no model for it. Then, use it as evidence that GW supports conversion for the orks, and to get your other models useable.

The only reason i play with him is cause hes my best friend and my other friends hate to play me because i slaughter them most of the time.

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Oh, the eternal conundrum. To be honest, I won't recommend 'just stop playing him' or, 'time to get yourself some new friends' because to be honest, I've been in your situation and I know that just doesnt work. Concentrate on winning him over, or you could try and train up other people in your area.

Well thanks for the help guys, also i haven't played him in a full scale game (like not combat patrol) and one on one since he found out he in fact can't assault out of rhinos (hes the only one of us who owns a rulebook because im not going to spend 50 bucks to get one)

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He sounds like a right twat, tbh. He refuses to play you at a certain points level because then he'd have to play by the rules? I said I won't say just stop playing him, so I wont, but... gaah. Try to borrow the rulebook for a while and make sure you know the rules too- after reading it through once or twice, you can remember most everything you need.

Well once again, thanks for the advice, i need to wipe the floor with him now so he can stop being arrogent :shifty:

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Bad plan- if you wipe the floor with him, he might refuse to play you again or get even more picky about models. He sounds like the kinda guy who might. Not that you shouldn't beat him, kick his ass by all means if you can, but don't do it with that attitude in mind.

i got it! A blood axe list! That will beat him, though he woudlnt talk to me after i killed his imperial guard but still..its worth it. I mean hes just a little..okay very, arrogent.


Heres what i was thinkign to beat him with a blood axe list

two 15 man squads of kommandos infiltrating to be a nuisince.

1 Looted Basalisk, 1 Looted Leman Russ, 3 Looted Razorbacks (put tank bustas in them with rokkits)

20 Skarboyz with the warboss sloggin it in

2 units of trukk boyz and 3 buggies

This is what i was thinking, i havent worked this out whatsoever...now i just need to get a basalisk 3 Razorbacks and 3 buggies..heheh.

Im thinking in since he wants to charge me this will work, and hell have to worry about those ordance shells raining down upon his head too..the kommands will help by making him have more targets, the buggies for tankbusting, the trukks for early charge, and the skarz and boss to get their for the final assault! I think this will work again him, what do u guys think?

It might work, although you need to remember that Kommandos have a max of ten in a squad (it's only Tankbustas that you can try to BS your way into saying you can have 15 "each mob may have five and ten" etc). However, three units of kommandos would be even better, especially if you give the nobs powerklaws to surprise the gitz. Just remember that they die really easily (no armour save).
Also, I could swear that looted vehicles became a 0-2 choice for Blood Axes, not 3. To go with that, you can only have two units of tank bustas. My suggestion? Stick a unit of ten (or however many a razor back can hold) 'ardboyz in one of them. I've seen that used to good effect before.
Finally, for an excellent fast attack unit, see about getting your hands on a Painboss and a maxed out unit of cyborks. These tear through beakies like no one's buisness. If you wanted to be evil, have your boss ride with THEM.