[Seaborg106]

Here's a poser which I think deserves its own thread--I've done a lot of research but can't find any answers in C:N, the BRB, the GW FAQ or this forum's FAQ.

Do fallen Necrons get removed during WBB if there are no like models within 6", even if there are still units of the same type on the table?

Consider this example: my squad of Warriors gets wiped out by weapons that would allow me a WBB. However, no units of Warriors are within 6". No Tomb Spyder is within 12". However, there ARE other Warriors on the table. At the start of my turn, I obviously can't attempt WBB for them... but do I remove the models? The codex says models which fail WBB get removed, and they "cannot self-repair" when destroyed by S=2T, power weapons, etc., but for the models-in-range issue the wording is "the self-repair ability only works if the wounded Necron is within 6" of another... [etc.]" This indicates to me that the robots on the ground can't try it yet. If I don't have to remove the models, I could try to get them to be able to WBB on a later turn by moving a Tomb Spyder or another unit of Warriors to within range.

This was a BIG issue in a game I played against an Eldar army--I would have phased out early (due to stupid tactics on my own behalf... and a little bit of cheese on my opponent's :messed: ) were I not able to try to res them. We looked through rulebooks for maybe 10 minutes, but then decided to just roll a die for it and move on. (Luckily the die landed in my favor...)



In another sort-of-related question, when rolling WBB, do you play with "chained" WBB? Id est, how do you deal with models *currently* outside of 6" of a similar Necron, but by resurrecting other Necrons during WBB rolls you can get the still-downed ones to be in range?

I figured these questions would spark enough controversy that they might be better asked here before transferring them to the sprawling FAQ thread.

 

[grantneodude]

I think this was talked about before I just don't recall the "ruling". I DO remember that you test for 6" at time of death and if they aren't there then it's a moot point. Thinking about it I believe it may have been houserule time for this question, as I recall a fair bit of stuff for both sides.

As for chaining, it kinda depends on the above question. Unless your talking about having a unit die in shooting and then the one they claimed 6" on dying during Assault. Then I would say that if it matters, you may roll the one who died in CC first, and then use them to allow the other squad, but you can't bring up half a squad to provide it for the other half. They were either in range at time of death and stayed, or were not and were removed. That's my 2 cents.

 

[Dark Trainer]

Simple answer to the first:

• At the time of wounding is when WBB is checked. If the model qualifies then YES lay the model down and roll WBB at the start of next turn. If the squad was wiped at the SAME time from one round of shooting, then those models are removed from game if they didn't qualify immediately. However, If squad X kills 5 that qualify, then squad Y shoots and kills the rest. The first 5 would get WBB and join the NEAREST squad on the table (it's in the codex).
• Simply stated, if the model qualifies for WBB at the time of death he will get WBB regardless.

The issue I have is...say they qualify for WBB at the time of death but there are no other warriors left to join at the end of the turn. What then? The FAQ says they qualify at the time of death, but there's nothing to attach them to. I assume that means those are gone now too...but it's not clear to me.

 

[Seaborg106]

Hmm... I like the thought process, but that poses another few questions. Deaths in the shooting phase are somewhat chronological. I.e., if one enemy Biovore shoots and eliminates my unit of Warriors and then a unit of Gaunts uses fleet of claw to run where my troops were, that is different from the Gaunts fleeting up to my warriors without being able to go into the squad then the Biovore shooting my Crons and possibly killing the Gaunts, too. Another example of chronological death calculation is in the Cron FAQs regarding the use of the Res Orb--if the lord is alive and has a res orb, the nearby models which die at S=2T get to make WBB but as soon as the lord dies in shooting, further models don't get Res Orb benefits.

This means, then, that if a squad shoots and kills half my Necrons and I take the wounds scattered throughout my squad, then they'll all be within 6" of other same-type Necrons (due to coherency) and by your logic eligible for WBB. Then, say another squad shoots and kills the rest of my Crons (who are then ineligible for WBB ). According to the way WBB eligibility is resolved (by your schema), even though the squad was wiped, on my turn I'll still be able to do WBB for the half who died while the others stayed alive... But this seems to go against the wording of the rule itself.

So the way I interpret the rule is that the 6" same-unit-distance is checked during my WBB phase... Thoughts?

EDIT: Dark Trainer posted and answered some of my questions while I was writing my post, but his final question does seem to support my technique...

 

[Dark Trainer]

I'm fairly certain the ruling on WBB is tested at the time of death is from the FAQ itself. Busy atm to look it up, but pretty sure. Even though it might seem off about the wording of the rule. It was said to simplify the process.

 

[Seaborg106]

I see where you might draw your conclusion--here's the section in the 5th Ed FAQs that seems to support what you're saying:

Q. When is the range of the resurrection orb
checked? At the time the Necron becomes
damaged or at the start of the turn when WBB is
rolled for?
A. Check range when a Necron becomes
damaged. If at least one (undamaged) model in
the unit is within 6" of a resurrection orb at that
point, leave the damaged Necron on the board.
Otherwise, immediately remove it from the table
as a casualty.

However, the way I interpret it, this regulation applies only to Res Orb range determination and not to WBB eligibility due to nearby similar models. It doesn't mention a thing about the locality of similar models. Do you see my reasoning? This is why I think it's a tough issue... And why I'm interested in how avid Cron Commanders play the rule.

 

[grantneodude]

I usually see it played thus:
Check range to similar model at time of death. Within 6"? Lay down. Outside 6"? Remove.
At the start of WBB phase choose a unit and roll for WBB if they have down models. Repeat for each unit that has a model awaiting WBB roll. After rolling check for PO.

Although have heard of checking at both time of death, and again when rolling for WBB. I prefer only checking at time of death, because it makes things simpler, and tips the rule more in favor of the Necron player. As it should be.

As for Trainers "no more on the field besides the down guys" question, I would vote for the first group you roll for just standing back up where they are, and any others who get back up joining that squad.

 

[Dark Trainer]

After rolling check for PO.

As for Trainers "no more on the field besides the down guys" question, I would vote for the first group you roll for just standing back up where they are, and any others who get back up joining that squad.

Phase out is immediate and downed Necrons are counted as DEAD models for the purposes of phase out. Meaning if you phase out at 10 and you have 9 standing (even if 10 are waiting WBB next turn) you lose immediately. Why would you be rolling for PO??

Your 2nd statement, I lean towards your choice there that they would just stand up. However there's nothing in the codex that states that. And it's pretty specific about if their squad is wiped, they join the nearest squad. Just an open ended rule :freaked-out:

 

[grantneodude]

Really? I was under the impression that you got to roll for WBB before you checked for phase out. Is that in the codex or in the FAQ?

I wasn't referring to rolling for PO I was referring to the rolling you do checking for WBB.

I will wholeheartedly agree with your annoyance at them not dealing with no other squads standing. It's just something Necron players have to deal with, within their group.

 

[Seaborg106]

C:N states specifically under Phase Out that

"If, after making all We'll Be Back! rolls, a Necron army is reduced to 25% or less of its original number of models... it will disappear in an eerie fashion, leaving behind nothing of its presence."

(Emphasis added).



The FAQ states that

"damaged Warriors count as casualties if the game ends before they are allowed a WBB roll"

which means the fallen warriors count as kill points for the enemy (as applicable).



The bottom line is: Necrons only Phase Out after WBB rolls. The FAQ ruling applies to mission-centric victory conditions.

I'm like 99% confident in my interpretation...

 

[Dark Trainer]

The FAQ states that which means the fallen warriors count as kill points for the enemy (as applicable).



The bottom line is: Necrons only Phase Out after WBB rolls. The FAQ ruling applies to mission-centric victory conditions.

I'm like 99% confident in my interpretation...

They count as kill points because they are considered dead already (anything dead doesn't count towards phase out that's off the board, on the board wouldn't make a difference). There is nothing that states or shows the downed Necrons counting towards phase out. In fact I assume quite the opposite. The FAQ states downed Necrons do not count as models of a similar type because they are just debris, meaning they lose function as part of the army altogether, including counting towards phase out. They are battlefield debris which is stated clearly in multiple places in the codex.

Since the codex states directly, once you are below 25%, you lose instantly. No waiting for your turn to come around, no waiting for your opponents assault phase, nothing. "Insta loss" straight from the codex.

 

[Canew]

Regarding the original question, I agree that the rules don't seem to address it, but my interpretation has always been as others have said. You check to see if it's eligible for WBB at the time of "death." If there are no like models within 6", then you're not eligible, ergo no WBB. It's been fairly well established that, for example, a model that gets hit with, say, a power weapon, can't hang around on the off chance that a Lord with res orb will happen to wander close enough. I imagine the same logic applies here.

 

[the_pariah7]

I don't know about you guys but I just generally roll for WBB at the start of my movement phase (just to make things easier) and check for Phase Out once I've done all my rolls (assuming that I'm not already less than).

However, I do believe that it states somewhere in the codex that if you have a mix of WBB negating weapons and non WBB negating weapons launched at the same time, the WBB negating weapons are assumed to strike before the WBB allowing ones. In other words, if you lose a wound or so first up, you assume its a no WBB one.

As for 'chaining', there are no explicit rules in the codex or the 5th edition that states in what order you do WBB rolls (with the exception of maybe the FAQ but how many do you know actually bother to read it?). So I do them in whatever order I feel like, assuming I can perform WBB. As such, I try to get lucky and chain them to revive the maximum possible.

As for the 6" Res Orb rule (not the fellow model one), it doesn't really matter so much as long as you have several members of units within the 6" Res Orb. Fortunately for us, there is a universal rule in the 5th edition that says that you may take casualties from ANYWHERE in the squad, including those not under the template so you can just take the no WBB wounds to the guys that are in range of the Res Orb. Though people question this, they do reluctantly accept it as being a legal move since you are allowed to take casualties from anywhere in the squad. (They can't complain because they always try to save their heavy weapon guys in their units! ).

That's my thought on this and feel free to question any of this, provided you can be specific.

 

[KJSparkz]

I'd have to disagree about PO being instant,it only occurs after your next WBB roll,so in theory you could be down to one model have a PO of 9 and have 20 awaiting WBB.If 9 stand back up when you roll WBB you are still in play and can continue, thats how I've always interpreted it and even used it in GW tournament play.

 

[Alzer]

KJ is right on this one.

Phase Out is calculated after WBB rolls have been made. This is clearly stated in the codex. WBB is rolled at the beginning of the Necron turn, so actually occur before the movement phase, unless models are being transported through the monolith, in which case it occurs during the movement phase.

 

[Dark Trainer]

KJ is right on this one.

Phase Out is calculated after WBB rolls have been made. This is clearly stated in the codex. WBB is rolled at the beginning of the Necron turn, so actually occur before the movement phase, unless models are being transported through the monolith, in which case it occurs during the movement phase.

Reading the codex now and HOLY CRAP you're right! I guess I totally ignored the 2nd paragraph that stands alone stating clearly "Phase out happens at the beginning of the Necron turn AFTER WBB's have been made". I'm a little iritated I've been short changing myself this whole time...:mad-tongue:

 

[zirch187]

To answer the original question, and to corret those who have been using the "at time of death" approach, the codex is actually pretty clear on how WBB works. Read the codex in order. Also remember, as with everything else in the game, parameters are taken into account at the time of any roll.

1. Each Necron that is reduced to zero wounds is layed down instead of removed from the game. This counts for every model with the "Necron" special rule.
2. At the start of every necron turn, Necrons attemp their WBB rolls. The repair ability only works if the wounded necron is within 6 inches of another model of the same type.
3. Since necron's can not self repair instant death or disallowed armor saves, it can not attempt a WBB, UNLESSS a ressurection orb is present.
4. and finally, if a tomb spider is within 12 inches and no model of the same type is within 6 at the time of WBB roll, It can still take a WBB roll and then it immediately joins that models unit as normal, regardless of where it ended up on the table.

So to recap, the first paragraph states that all damaged necrons are layed down, the start of the second paragraph in the codex says that at the start of a necron turn, all damaged necrons take a WBB roll, then it proceeds to inform you what will allow/deny this roll, but one fact remains, it is at the time of the roll that these parameters are considered.

ALSO, and this is important and kind of open to your interpretation here, but, I always just assumed that necron's either got the WBB roll, or got removed from the table, but on careful analysis of the codex, it actually does not say that anywhere, it says on a 1-3 implying that you HAVE to roll to get removed, but it also says "At the start of every Necron turn, damaged Necrons may self-repair." As the specific wordings in the rulebook are very important, this is a direct implication that you can leave damaged necron's on the table until the parameters to attempt a WBB roll are there, as there is nothing in the rule that states you remove the model under any circumstance except when you roll to stand up or remove.

I have never played the rule this way, but after very carefully reading the rule, I want you guys to do the same, and tell me what you think.

 

[Radar]

Your first statement (check done when rolling for WBB) is explicitly contracted in the Necron FAQ. It is stated that checks are done at the time of death.

As for 'may' self-repair ... I'm stuck there. I have never seen anyone postponing WBB rolls to wait for proper conditions, but this is irrelevant because as I explained earlier, such check is done when the model dies, and therefore it does not matter whether you roll or not.

 

[Dark Trainer]

Your first statement (check done when rolling for WBB) is explicitly contracted in the Necron FAQ. It is stated that checks are done at the time of death.

As for 'may' self-repair ... I'm stuck there. I have never seen anyone postponing WBB rolls to wait for proper conditions, but this is irrelevant because as I explained earlier, such check is done when the model dies, and therefore it does not matter whether you roll or not.

NO, that is to test the RES orb's ability. NOT WBB. The codex states specifically WBB is tested at the beginning of the NECRON phase! Check the FAQ and the Codex again...

 

[zirch187]

Your first statement (check done when rolling for WBB) is explicitly contracted in the Necron FAQ. It is stated that checks are done at the time of death.

As for 'may' self-repair ... I'm stuck there. I have never seen anyone postponing WBB rolls to wait for proper conditions, but this is irrelevant because as I explained earlier, such check is done when the model dies, and therefore it does not matter whether you roll or not.

Where is this FAQ? because it's not in the codex, I just checked every page 3 times to be sure. So where is it written that checks are made at time of death? I see nothing in the rules that state checks are made at time of death. Unless otherwise specified, I would assume checks are made at time of rolls like everything else in the game.

Also if it indeed is contradicted in the FAQ, I'm taking the Codex over the FAQ since that is what is in print and that is what is used as the ruleset for playing. If they want to make the FAQ official, then they need to reprint the codex to include information in the FAQ

Also, using simple logic, why would a ressurection orb only benefit you if it was near when you died, and not near when you are attempting to ressurect? (WBB ) It makes far more sense for a res orb check to be made at the attempt of a (WBB ) Ressurection.