Need help vs Lost and the damned (1500 Chaos)

Hi guys, well I'm the LatD guy he talks about. I've only played 4 games with them till now and I'm still gaining experience with every battle. I play 40k for a while now so I'm no Noobie. In our battles, I always get to deploy first for some reason and the games we played were Cleanse or Pitched Battle missions, last time it was with escalation, so his deployment zone was kinda cramped. In the last battle (escalation), my tanks didn't do a thing because they arrived a bit late, but the rest went good for me. I used 3 deamon units in turn 2 to charge a zerker unit and wipe it out, consolidating with them all in cover as much as possible. I don't think it's easy for an army like his with 41 models to group up on me, cuz I almost have 2,5 times as much models. And we aren't really of the mindset to change our army according to the opponent. I' still tryong stuff out and so is he, but he has to win sometime... He's getting depressed, somehow my LatD also won from a very shooty marine army(nilla) even though I don't have bloated mutants and walked straight to him....:shifty:

Well since you're a good sport about it I'll try to give some thoughts that might help a bit.
Each Bezerker on the charge will kill about 1.2 mutants. This means that if you can manage to keep the numbers even then there will be no retribution. Not on the charge they kill .67 each. So if you are charged be sure to outnumber 3 to 2 and you will still always win. Also getting the charge is a big deal. (though I am staiting the obvious with that last sentance.

The problem is that if you keep your guys together to get the outnumbers then the become pieplate bait. You kill your oponent in one turn and are free to be shot up in the next shooting phase. I have often lost one squad to concentrated zerkers only to destroy them with a few pie plates. Ordinance is deadly when troops are packed together. . .

Hmm I might suggest if you know you're going up against this list don't buy chainaxes. That will save you a few points to use on other stuff as they're not going to help you vs av5 muntants.

You might look at dropping Furious Charge as well It's most usefull effect is the ability to go first against MeQ's, but you already have the inititive. After the first turn you're str bonus is gone, and you're bogged down with a bunch of mutants.

These things will make your zerkers cheeper, so you can get better numbers against the mutants. this does two thing for you: lower the impact of the powerfists hurting you, and allows you to take more zerkers so you can kill these guys faster. Basicly your ideal CC phase is you killing a ton of mutants you get hit with a few powerfists, loose a few guys, then wipe out the fists on his turn. then on your turn you charge another mutant squad and do it again.

So if your not above tooling your army to beat him go with as many bare zerkers as you can take. that's 20% more zerkers and each one is as good as the standard tooled one (well against this army anyway.)

Dropping your bikes and bloodletters will give you 25 more (well 24 you want to stick with sacred #'s as these are less effective vs mutants.

Corse vs a normal army list I already said that you've got a pretty sweet setup as it is.

I don't get the impression that cowbertha's foolish enough to do that. 20 mutants shoot 40 shots. 13.333 hits 6.6666 wounds 2.2222 zerkers die, not too bad, but! 13.3333 mutants also suffer from overheat and 9 mutants die. (8.8888) so assuming he's using stripped down zerkers thats doing in 1.26 pts to kill 1 of his.
Personally I don't even take the firearms, if you keep the CCW then when you buy the powerfist for the boss he's gonna get an extra attack. That's better than a shooting attack that on average does more damage to yourself than your opponent. Opps that's would be helping the wrong side here.

Anyway If I understand what Garnoth is reffering to if the Bezerkers are to win the battle of attrition, then at the end of init 4 there could be nothing left in the CC zone to strike back at all. This kills the hidden powerfists, and prevents the retribution.
The lord is going to need a squad behind him, and as long as they are enough to whipe a mutant squad then they're not going to need to worry bout the powerfists.
But then there is the probem of shooting. It's the russ & defiler that I would worry about. Consolitating into base to base would be a big help. But alas you can't alway do that.

Andusciassus said:

Check how it works on p 41, Suffering wounds % removing casualties. Remember that IC's re considered individual units in cc. You can always try to consolidate back into base contact or just let him blow himself to pieces while rapidfiring those "gets hot" firearms:yes:

Click to expand...

Well, his mutant boss and AC are not IC, so he can still allocate those thits on my daemon prince. It's just that IC's can't make their attacks unless they are in base to base, but his AC and mutant boss are not IC's, and my daemon prince is. As my daemon prince is a unit, he can still allocate all his attacks on the prince itself.

And he doesn't use firearms, since those things are pretty pointless, because you want those mutants in combat, not rapid fireing. He does, however, use flamers, but those are assault weapons.

EDIT

Ok guys, I did some math on my zerkers and prince charging one of his units of mutants.

If I assault with my zerkers, i get 6.2222222 kills on average. Let's say he had 12 mutants (normal ones) which were able to strike in the first place (which isn't unlikely). My daemon prince kills 3 mutants. With 9 mutants dead thats another 6 attacks. This kills a little less than 1 marine on average. Then all the powerfists are done at the same time. He gets 5 fist attacks with his AC and 4 with his mutant boss. this kills 4 zerkers on average. My AC has 5 attacks, killing 3 mutants.

So I killed 12 mutants, which is worth 72 points. He proceded to kill 4 zerkers, which is 80 points. So that's a Ld 10 test for him, he passes and consolidates.

Now for the combat after this one. I get to strike first, so that's 9 chain axe attacks. That's 2 dead mutants. Then My daemon prince kills about 3 mutants. he still has 7 mutants standing after those attacks, so that's 14 attacks, which kill 1 zerker. Than the power fists. He kills 4 zerkers again, wiping them out. My AC kills 2 mutants.

Now he has 5 mutants, a boss and an AC still standing. Mu zerker unit is wiped out. I killed 7 mutants, that's 42 points. He killed 4 zerkers again, that's 80 points.

Let's look at the combat between the daemon prince and the mutants following this (it's very unlikely he hasn't brought in any daemon suport by now).

My daemon prince kills 3 mutants, his boss and AC (almost) kill my daemon prince. ( it's 1,4 kills for the AC and 0,66666 for the boss). I I am lucky and the prince survives, he's killed the next turn taking another 3 mutants with him.

So without any form of support from both sides, A daemon prince and an unit of zerkers will lose combat to a unit of 25 mutants with aboss and AC with mutation and power fist.

He has lost 25 mutants, earning me a whole 150 points. He has killed models worth 327 points.

So I hope you see what problems this gives me