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Need help vs Lost and the damned (1500 Chaos)

960 Views 15 Replies 6 Participants Last post by  Andusciassus
Hi there,

I play a world eaters army, with the following list:

1500 Pts - CSM: World Eaters Army

1 Daemon Prince @ 147 Pts
Mark of Khorne; CC Weapon (x2)
Daemonic Stature
Daemonic Speed
Daemonic Resilience
Daemonic Strength
Daemonic Aura
Feel No Pain

7 Khorne Berzerkers Chaos Space Marines (Troops) @ 204 Pts
Chainaxe (x8 ); Bolt Pistol (x7)
#Furious Charge
1 Free Aspiring Champion
Power Fist (x1); Bolt Pistol (x1)
Talisman of Burning Blood

7 Khorne Berzerkers Chaos Space Marines (Troops) @ 180 Pts
Chainaxe (x8 ); Bolt Pistol (x7)
1 Free Aspiring Champion
Power Fist (x1); Bolt Pistol (x1)
Talisman of Burning Blood

7 Khorne Berzerkers Chaos Space Marines (Troops) @ 180 Pts
Chainaxe (x8 ); Bolt Pistol (x7)
1 Free Aspiring Champion
Power Fist (x1); Bolt Pistol (x1)
Talisman of Burning Blood

8 Bloodletter (Troops) @ 208 Pts

5 Khorne Berzerkers Bikers (Fast Attack) @ 268 Pts
Mark of Khorne; Chainaxe (x6); Combi-Bolter (x5)
1 Aspiring Champion
Power Fist (x1); Combi-Bolter

1 Chaos Predator (Heavy Support) @ 145 Pts
Autocannon; Lascannon Sponsons
Daemonic Possession

1 Chaos Predator (Heavy Support) @ 165 Pts
TL Lascannons; Lascannon Sponsons
Daemonic Possession

Models in Army: 41

Now he plays LatD, and he uses something like this:

3 aspiring champions of khorne with powerfists

3 units of about 20 or more mutants with mutant bosses with powerfists

1 unit of 6 traitors with an autocannon.

1 Leman Russ

1 Defiler

3 units of 8 furies

1 unit of 6 daemonettes

My zerkers just can't kill enough mutants a turn to get to the powerfistwielding baddies, so once I hit with al my marines, they are still standing and thwack me with 9 powerfist attacks. His daemons also have higher initiative than my marines, and my bloodletters are fearly useless against his troops. Also, he has a frightening score of hit rolls on his scatter dice, so usually he will render 1, sometimes 2 squads useless with his ordnance.

I don't know how i can wither down his numbers, my daemon prince can't taken a unit on on it's own because of the 9 powerfist attacks.

I've now been massacred 3 times in a row, and it isn't funny anymore.

Could you guys please give me some tactical advice?
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Thats a toughie. He looks like he has a pretty hard army, so I'll say this:

Try getting as many squads into 1 mutant squad as possible. If you can pile in your Prince, 2 squads and your bikes, you should rip a squad to shreds, without worrying about the power fist. If you can than consolidate into cover, he can't counter charge you very well. You probably need to take down the Russ and Defiler quickly, but against this army, personally I would say drop the autocannon predator and get another squad of bloodletters. These things are really worthwhile against mutants.
Assault everything in one place, overwhelm his squads with yours. Assuming you can survive the defiler and Russ you will rip his army to shreds.

Go for a flank and then roll the army up from behind, to keep himself safe he will have to do some major redployment or throw 1 or 2 squads at you to slow you down.
Hi guys, well I'm the LatD guy he talks about. I've only played 4 games with them till now and I'm still gaining experience with every battle;). I play 40k for a while now so I'm no Noobie. In our battles, I always get to deploy first for some reason and the games we played were Cleanse or Pitched Battle missions, last time it was with escalation, so his deployment zone was kinda cramped. In the last battle (escalation), my tanks didn't do a thing because they arrived a bit late, but the rest went good for me. I used 3 deamon units in turn 2 to charge a zerker unit and wipe it out, consolidating with them all in cover as much as possible. I don't think it's easy for an army like his with 41 models to group up on me, cuz I almost have 2,5 times as much models. And we aren't really of the mindset to change our army according to the opponent. I' still tryong stuff out and so is he, but he has to win sometime... He's getting depressed, somehow my LatD also won from a very shooty marine army(nilla) even though I don't have bloated mutants and walked straight to him....:shifty:
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Ok as an experiened Lost player with a list not too diferent from Cowbertha's I have some hard words for you:
MY LIST HAS NEVER LOST TO KHORNE, not once, pisses the local players off. (Well at least the khorne croud.) And it's not not just wins it's usually crushing defeats. I can imagine your frustration.

Mutants are idealy suited to destroy elite CC squads.(Say the entire Khorne army. . .) They can't help it. It's nothing against your list. In fact in my opinion it's one of the best World Eater lists I've seen. You are the unfortunate victim of a bad paper rock sissors game you you keep picking rock, an he keeps picking paper.

If you want to beat that list. . .play a diferent army. :(
Heh, yeah I guessed as much. But I'm not giving up, the fact that it's hard doesn't mean it's impossible (I hope), and him beating me all the time makes me want to beat him even harder.

So yeah, I guess it's just a bad match of armies.
Well since you're a good sport about it I'll try to give some thoughts that might help a bit.
Each Bezerker on the charge will kill about 1.2 mutants. This means that if you can manage to keep the numbers even then there will be no retribution. Not on the charge they kill .67 each. So if you are charged be sure to outnumber 3 to 2 and you will still always win. Also getting the charge is a big deal. (though I am staiting the obvious with that last sentance.

The problem is that if you keep your guys together to get the outnumbers then the become pieplate bait. You kill your oponent in one turn and are free to be shot up in the next shooting phase. I have often lost one squad to concentrated zerkers only to destroy them with a few pie plates. Ordinance is deadly when troops are packed together. . .

Hmm I might suggest if you know you're going up against this list don't buy chainaxes. That will save you a few points to use on other stuff as they're not going to help you vs av5 muntants.

You might look at dropping Furious Charge as well It's most usefull effect is the ability to go first against MeQ's, but you already have the inititive. After the first turn you're str bonus is gone, and you're bogged down with a bunch of mutants.

These things will make your zerkers cheeper, so you can get better numbers against the mutants. this does two thing for you: lower the impact of the powerfists hurting you, and allows you to take more zerkers so you can kill these guys faster. Basicly your ideal CC phase is you killing a ton of mutants you get hit with a few powerfists, loose a few guys, then wipe out the fists on his turn. then on your turn you charge another mutant squad and do it again.

So if your not above tooling your army to beat him go with as many bare zerkers as you can take. that's 20% more zerkers and each one is as good as the standard tooled one (well against this army anyway.)

Dropping your bikes and bloodletters will give you 25 more (well 24 you want to stick with sacred #'s as these are less effective vs mutants.

Corse vs a normal army list I already said that you've got a pretty sweet setup as it is.
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thanks for the tips, I have thought about taking a unit of 16 marines, see how that works, maybe then I will have enough attacks to sweep the ENTIRE killzone clean (usually, it's just the powerfist guys and a few mutants standing, and then they pile in).

Anyway, we are having another match tonight, so I'll try something new.

Thanks alot for all your comments :)
Make sure to keep that lord out of the Champs/Mutant bosses killzone's. If you are not base to base with any mutants after your attacks he cannot retaliate. If the Power fists are not within the 2" radius they cannot allocate hits on him. That ought to keep him alive.
Actually, he can retaliate if I kill all his engaged models. You still count as being in contact, so they can strike back (otherwise you could actually kill to many models and allow him to rapid fire the next turn).
Check how it works on p 41, Suffering wounds % removing casualties. Remember that IC's re considered individual units in cc. You can always try to consolidate back into base contact or just let him blow himself to pieces while rapidfiring those "gets hot" firearms:yes:
I don't get the impression that cowbertha's foolish enough to do that. 20 mutants shoot 40 shots. 13.333 hits 6.6666 wounds 2.2222 zerkers die, not too bad, but! 13.3333 mutants also suffer from overheat and 9 mutants die. (8.8888) so assuming he's using stripped down zerkers thats doing in 1.26 pts to kill 1 of his.
Personally I don't even take the firearms, if you keep the CCW then when you buy the powerfist for the boss he's gonna get an extra attack. That's better than a shooting attack that on average does more damage to yourself than your opponent. Opps that's would be helping the wrong side here.

Anyway If I understand what Garnoth is reffering to if the Bezerkers are to win the battle of attrition, then at the end of init 4 there could be nothing left in the CC zone to strike back at all. This kills the hidden powerfists, and prevents the retribution.
The lord is going to need a squad behind him, and as long as they are enough to whipe a mutant squad then they're not going to need to worry bout the powerfists.
But then there is the probem of shooting. It's the russ & defiler that I would worry about. Consolitating into base to base would be a big help. But alas you can't alway do that.
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Andusciassus said:
Check how it works on p 41, Suffering wounds % removing casualties. Remember that IC's re considered individual units in cc. You can always try to consolidate back into base contact or just let him blow himself to pieces while rapidfiring those "gets hot" firearms:yes:
Well, his mutant boss and AC are not IC, so he can still allocate those thits on my daemon prince. It's just that IC's can't make their attacks unless they are in base to base, but his AC and mutant boss are not IC's, and my daemon prince is. As my daemon prince is a unit, he can still allocate all his attacks on the prince itself.

And he doesn't use firearms, since those things are pretty pointless, because you want those mutants in combat, not rapid fireing. He does, however, use flamers, but those are assault weapons.


Ok guys, I did some math on my zerkers and prince charging one of his units of mutants.

If I assault with my zerkers, i get 6.2222222 kills on average. Let's say he had 12 mutants (normal ones) which were able to strike in the first place (which isn't unlikely). My daemon prince kills 3 mutants. With 9 mutants dead thats another 6 attacks. This kills a little less than 1 marine on average. Then all the powerfists are done at the same time. He gets 5 fist attacks with his AC and 4 with his mutant boss. this kills 4 zerkers on average. My AC has 5 attacks, killing 3 mutants.

So I killed 12 mutants, which is worth 72 points. He proceded to kill 4 zerkers, which is 80 points. So that's a Ld 10 test for him, he passes and consolidates.

Now for the combat after this one. I get to strike first, so that's 9 chain axe attacks. That's 2 dead mutants. Then My daemon prince kills about 3 mutants. he still has 7 mutants standing after those attacks, so that's 14 attacks, which kill 1 zerker. Than the power fists. He kills 4 zerkers again, wiping them out. My AC kills 2 mutants.

Now he has 5 mutants, a boss and an AC still standing. Mu zerker unit is wiped out. I killed 7 mutants, that's 42 points. He killed 4 zerkers again, that's 80 points.

Let's look at the combat between the daemon prince and the mutants following this (it's very unlikely he hasn't brought in any daemon suport by now).

My daemon prince kills 3 mutants, his boss and AC (almost) kill my daemon prince. ( it's 1,4 kills for the AC and 0,66666 for the boss). I I am lucky and the prince survives, he's killed the next turn taking another 3 mutants with him.

So without any form of support from both sides, A daemon prince and an unit of zerkers will lose combat to a unit of 25 mutants with aboss and AC with mutation and power fist.

He has lost 25 mutants, earning me a whole 150 points. He has killed models worth 327 points.

So I hope you see what problems this gives me :D
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It's just that IC's can't make their attacks unless they are in base to base
They can also not be attacked unless they are in base to base. So, if you clean the area (that's charge and make sure not to end up in BtB with more then one or two models) his unit cannot attack you. Not the grunts nor the Characters.
The characters (champ and boss) also must be within the 2" combatzone of the Lord to be able to hit him. If they are not...They'll have to hit the Berzerkers (if they are within the 2" from base to base zone)

You should also consider changin the lascan sponsons on the Autocannon Predator for Heavy Bolters and use the saved points to get yourself some Daemonic visages.
There are a few things that don't make sense to me.

First, Isn't it important that I kill some units too. I mean, if I charge few models to avoid my prince getting killed, Then I also prevent my unit from killing. And my main goal is to kill on the charge.

Btw, If you read the math I did, I din't attack the prince untill after the zerkers were dead.
Btw, If you read the math I did, I din't attack the prince untill after the zerkers were dead.
My bad, sorry.:rolleyes:
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