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LO Zealot
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So the question is, can an ork's leadership go above 10 using their new Mob Rule? There are two rules that kind of contradict each other, one in the BGB and one in the Ork Codex.

BGB, Characteristics section, Page 12, second paragraph, 1st sentence:
"All characteristics are measured on a scale of 0 to 10."

Ork Codex, page 31, "Mob Rule!":
"Ork mobs may always choose to substitute the number of Orks in their mob for their normal Leadership value. If an Ork mob numbers 11 or more models, it has the Fearless special rule."

** Note to Mods, if posting these rules are against forum regulations, I apologize and please edit them out leaving just the page references. Thanks.



So the question becomes, does the Mob Rule override the BGB scale? The codex was written after, true enough, but it doesn't explicitly state that the value can go over 10. Nowhere does it state "this may take your leadership over 10", instead it states you become fearless if you have more than a certain number of orks in the unit.

On the other hand, it does indeed imply that you can have an astronomical leadership if you're in a maximum size Ork Boyz unit. It doesn't state you have to stop at 10, just that you gain benefits for being over that in size.

So would you need express permission to override the BGB rule or just implied permission?


It does matter, too. There are things that being fearless wouldn't help against when having a 15+ leadership would. Namely:
- Target priority
- Psychic tests
- Psychic hood defense
- Mind War defense
- Deceiver's special ability

Just to name a few.

To me, it seems that RAW could be argued either way with it leaning more heavily towards the ability to go past 10 while RAI seem to point to capping at 10. With a few tournaments coming up, I was curious how everyone felt it should work. Thoughts?

Thanks,

moob
 

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Advocatus Diaboli
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The Orks stay at ld10 since it does not allow them to go above it, and the scale is specifically from 0-10 - Codex: Orks does not override the BGB in any way on that point.
 

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for good and for awesome!
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More to the point, Mob Rule says nothing about gaining a Ld greater than 10. It simply, in explicit terms, says that squads of sizes 11 and greater gain Fearless. The rule says nothing about violating the attribute limit, which would be required, in explicit terms, to make any true statement to that effect. In other words, the rule doesn't say "the mobs of greater than 10 models may have a Ld that goes beyond the universal limit" or something similar.
 

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I've gotten into this argument of number of times before.

Although I usually play the "max 10" rule (unless my opponent is a real jerk) there is nothing in the BGB which explicitly states that a stat is capped at 10. It just says the values go from 1-10.

Here's an example. Take the newest Chaos Codex with the Khorne Lord. He can take a 2h weapon which gives 2D6 attacks. Now Attacks IS a statline. Yet there is no mention that if you roll an 11 or 12 (or 10 +1 for the charge) that you can't have more than 10 Attacks.

If you use the argument "stats are capped at 10" then that would include # of Attacks as that is a statline the same as Ld.

Some argue that it's a "bonus" and not a substitution. Well, if it were a bonus it would be 3+2D6 attacks (I think the Lord as 3 base attacks), not 2D6 attacks (replacement).

And those that say "Well, Attacks are an exception to the rule" then one could just respond, "Show me where." The fact is it ISN'T listed in any book/Codex that Attacks are somehow "special".

But as stated, unless GW issues an FAQ (not holding my breath) here's yet another rule which will be debated until the end of time.
 

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LO Zealot
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Although I usually play the "max 10" rule (unless my opponent is a real jerk) there is nothing in the BGB which explicitly states that a stat is capped at 10. It just says the values go from 1-10.
Well, the BGB states "on a scale of 0-10". That's more or less saying a max/cap of 10.



Here's an example. Take the newest Chaos Codex with the Khorne Lord. He can take a 2h weapon which gives 2D6 attacks. Now Attacks IS a statline. Yet there is no mention that if you roll an 11 or 12 (or 10 +1 for the charge) that you can't have more than 10 Attacks.

If you use the argument "stats are capped at 10" then that would include # of Attacks as that is a statline the same as Ld.

Some argue that it's a "bonus" and not a substitution. Well, if it were a bonus it would be 3+2D6 attacks (I think the Lord as 3 base attacks), not 2D6 attacks (replacement).
Kinda comparing apples to oranges here, as the Ork Mob rule specifically states you can use it to replace your leadership. Without a specific "this may take you over 10" clause, as Kore mentioned, the BGB rule still stands.

For the Chaos Daemon Weapon, I believe the bonus argument is correct (though I'd have to double-check my codex when I'm not at work). The daemon weapons give you extra attacks, they do not change your profile. After all, lets say someone has 10 attacks on their profile - would you say that they do not get the bonus attack for charging because they'd now have 10+1?



Regardless of the Chaos issue, I'd agree with Rork & kore that Ork leadership is capped at 10.
 

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Ummm I know the Chaos Lord isn't at issue here, but the whole "2D6 attacks is a bonus" argument is correct. you get +2D6 attacks, the 2D6 doesn't replace your statline.

However, back on topic, I have to agree that the Ork LD is capped at 10 (the rules in the BGB, as far as I'm concerned, specifically state that the stats are 0-10) - just my two cents.

Cheers,
Scott
 

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Murder
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Yeah I had to read that deamon weapon line a billion times to make sure it was correct, it says something along the lines of "GAINS 2D6 attacks", if it said, "the model is given 2D6 attacks to replace his basic attack" thats different, but that one little word can change a lot.

A bonus isn't a stat line though, If a model had 10 attacks and went on the charge, you wouldn't forfiet that charge attack simply because he's at his "max".

Doesn't the BGB say something about individual codexes overriding the BGB?
But this is a pickle, I think 10 would have to be your max unfortunately.
 

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Dark Eldar Zealot
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Hi,
I have to agree with all Characteristics being capped at level 10 except –
1. Attacks and,
2. Vehicle Armour, but that really has its own specific entry.

Cheers.
 

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2. Vehicle Armour, but that really has its own specific entry.
Ye gods man, NO! don't do it. don't open the conversation of doom again! It's not a charecteristic (crumples to floor) It was just a lazy GW typist (starts crying) no more! (sobs uncontrollably)
 

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After all, lets say someone has 10 attacks on their profile - would you say that they do not get the bonus attack for charging because they'd now have 10+1?
Actually yes you could make that arguement (not that I am) that if you have 10 attacks you don't get the +1 for charging. Afterall an Ork Warboss with a PK has a Strength 10 and on the Charge with Furious Charge (+1 Strength) he does not get the FC bonus and is maxed at 10 Strength and unfortuantely is not the 11 strength, at least as far as I know he doesn't get the 11 strength, please correct me if I am wrong.

If this is true and the ruling is that stats are maxed at 10, then one could argue that bonuses cannot take you over this max and thus the most attacks a single model could get is 10 in a single turn.
 

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no, a warboss' strength cannot go above 10 because he does not have express permission. ork mobs on the other hand do.

here is a quote strait from the new ork codex page 31:
Ork mobs may always choose to substitute the number or Orks in their mob for their Leadership value.

By saying "always" they have given us express permission to override the BGB rule of all stats listed as 1 - 10

P.S. oh, by the way, I joined today because I saw this thread. :)
 

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And welcome to the forum warboss_ghazghkull, it's good to have ya!

I'm glad to see that a single thread could push you into joining but however I am sorry to tell you that this thread has been inactive for over two years. If you head into the Ork forum I'm sure there will be more recent threads for you to make your contributions to :)
 

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the Ork Warboss with PK would be S4 *2 for PK = S8 now add +1S for Furious Charge = S9 so he hasnt even reached cap

Ork Mob Rule moddify LD by # of models upto 10 at 11+ models gain fearless to represent their tenacity

Attacks 10 is the maximum stat unless your stat says 2d6 3d6 Etc Etc and then it is RANDOM so can indeed go above 10
Bonus for charging +1 (+2 in some chase's) is not a state so is in addtion to your state line attacks
AHW is also NOT a state so can take you above ten as its 3+1 Etc Etc..

thats how its Played in my local GW
 

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Knight-Champion
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Right, let's sort this out.

...these characteristics are given a value on a scale of 0 to 10...
...Certain pieces of wargear or special rules may modify a model’s characteristics...
...However no modifier may raise any characteristic above 10 or lower it below 0.
You can for Attacks, because it is specifically stated in the rulebook:

Note that bonus attacks are an exception to the rules for characteristics’ maximum modifiers and may bring a model’s total attacks above 10!
This does not allow the base attacks to be above 10, only once bonuses are added (including wargear granted ones). So that sorts out the Daemon Weapon.

The Strength value for the FCing S5 Ork with Power Klaw cannot go above 10 as this is not mentioned as an exception.

For Mob Rule, I do not believe you can take Ld above 10 as this is not mentioned as an exception to a fairly set in stone rule. Also, if you look in the February 2010 Ork FAQ, it clearly states (albeit for a specific instance rather than generally):

Ork FAQ said:
Q. Can a Weirdboy’s Leadership be increased to more than 10 by the Mob Rule?
A. No, it can be increased, but only up to a maximum of 10.
Hope this (belatedly) resolves this argument.
 
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