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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi all not sure how active the forum is but I need help I am new to skaven. I like the idea of a clan skryre list.

So I love (and the whole reason for doing a skaven force) is the forge world rat lord on brood horror so that is a must for my list I have 2 warp lightning cannons which are also musts was thinking 2 doom wheels as well just to make it themed.

Is the warlock augmented weapon good with +1 strength and attack? I want my lord to be: lord, Tali of pres, heavy armour, enchanted shield, warlock forge blade and broad horror skryre claws, tail attack heavy armour.

Love storm vermin so my question skaven horde or deep? I was thinking I would need a grey seer, a bsb?

I know this thread seems a bit all over but any help would be appreciated
 

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I don't have quite as much experience with Skaven as I do with the other armies - everything I know comes from playing against them. One of the guys in my group switched from O&G to Ratkin and loved it, but then he left for the military about 3 months later :p
I own/read their book though, so I can at least offer some opinions on what they've got, until one of the Skaven's own veterans stops by to dust me up.

Rat Lord on a Brood Horror
Do you really want that thing? It's going to run you almost 200pts, plus any upgrades (Regen is a must) and then the Lord on top and his kit. At the end of the day, it's only T5, and because it's a Monster/Rider instead of Monstrous Cav or a mixed statline (maybe you'll get lucky in 9th, eh?) it's going to get picked out 2/3 times by whatever hits it. There's a lot of magic that could bring that thing down fairly easily, and anything with S4 will have a heyday against it.
Plus, you lose the biggest advantage of the Lord - his Ld7. Inside some ranks, Skaven units around him can pull Ld10, and cover the army's biggest weakness, according to most folks.
I mean, if you want to run him, then go for it. I think that the BoneBreaker would be better (ET Thanquol model), but if you think that you can make up the "oomph" elsewhere in the army, you might be able to sneak it by. I just wouldn't bring it to a tournament, or any super-competitive group. Although, if this is a second or third army for you behind your Elves, that might not be a problem. Everyone deserves at least one "for funsies" army.

StormVermin are good, but I think that one of the biggest mistakes I've seen Skaven players make, is taking an army that is too small. The more you top-load your army with Characters and Warmachines (as Skaven are wont to do) the more you're going to want something to soak up the damage in your Core. Slaves and ClanRats should be used to bulk up your Core drops. The only use for Storm Vermin, is getting S4 into the list with their Halberds. Shields are optional, and on something as cheap as Skaven I'd say leave them at home. Figure, for the price of shields on a big unit, you can get a bunch more actual models into the ranks.
For you it's a toss-up. Storm Vermin will stand their ground better than Clans or Slaves. If you could capitalize on the Ld10 potential of your Lord, I'd say go with the lesser-rats all the way, but since you're only rocking Ld7, it's a hard call. On the other hand, you're tossing a lot at that Brood Horror Lord, so you might want to just take Clan-Anvils and use him as a Hammer.

Doomwheel's not bad. When they work, they work incredibly well, and when they don't they are only killing cheap-as-chips Skaven, so it's no worry. They're awesome at ripping apart Chaos Warriors though, as I've learned through experience. If you can get 2 into the army somehow, it would be a little better. It would give you redundancy, so that if one of them messed up the plan or didn't make it, the other would slip through. I always thought that they were a Special unit, because that's how they've always felt to me. Too bad they're Rare though.

WLCs are obviously awesome, take as many as you want.

If you're cool with playing the ETs stuff, the new Stormfiends are downright stupid (both in appearance, and in how cheesed-out their rules are)
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Hi cap thanks for the reply this is a more themed fun army. Brood horror comes with regen stubborn and d3 impact hits as standard and was thinking only the skryre claws for theme guy on back with a 2+ 4++ and 6++ against war machines incase of flaming shooting he will have 5 str 5 attacks and not general that will be the gray seer on a bell for 18 inch leadership bubble and that will be pushed by 41 stormvermin with a bsb chieftain with banner of discipline for a leadership 8 general? Thoughts?

To go with clan skryre theme 2 blocks of slaves 2 blocks of clan rats the clan and vermin have poison wind mortars and 2 doom wheels and 2 wlc any thoughts on this list?
 

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It's a lot tied up in characters, with the Bell and the Brood Horror.
Nothing really jumps at me as being that scary except for the 2 Wheels and 2 WLC, but those are standard for most of the Skaven armies I've played against. I'm used to seeing Rat Ogres, and/or Poison Wind Globadiers or Jezzails alongside. Also, usually Plague Monks in the same capacity as your current Storm Vermin (big, rock-hard unit).

Thematically, it seems that Skaven "themed lists" are in much the same boat as WoC themed armies - the only "mono" you can force into working, would be Pestilens/Nurgle, but you lose out on a few shining gems from the other factions (like Rat Ogres or Skull Crushers).
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I see that I was thinking of dropping the bell as I have 900pts of characters at 2500 I just love the brood horror model soooooo much.

I didn't think rat ogres were any good? storm fiends look good rules wise but compete with wlc and doom wheels in rare. The rest of the list is kinda to mop up after the shooting has done it's job though I was thinking if I had the points some poison wind globadiers as the would be good for taking down high armour stuff but that's also the doom wheels job. I wish weapon teams could be taken as a battery in special because then I could have my mortars (which are really quite good) as a separate choice and put warp fire teams with my stormvermin and clan rats :(.

Tbh I have no idea how this list is going to play but I like it because I like the models in the list :) and it is unlikely to be going tourn accept the odd blood brothers with my wife's chaos :)

Cap your advice as always is solid
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 · (Edited)
This is the list currently.

Lord

Warlord broad horror, talisman of pres warlock augmented weapon enchanted shield iron cures icon
385pts

gray seer bell warp condenser
440pts

Hero

Chieftain bsb armour of destiny halberd
127pts

Core

40 skaven slaves shields 5x8
100pts

40 skaven slaves shields 5x8
100pts

35 clan rats shields standard poison wind mortar 5x7
232.5pts

35 clan rats shields standard poison wind mortar 5x7
232.5pts

41 stormvermin standard fang leader banner of discipline poison wind mortar pushing bell 7x6 with bell horde formation bsb here to.
387pts

rare

2 warp lightning cannons xxx

2 doom wheels xxx

Total 2500pts

Thoughts? It almost follows the skaven rule of 100 models per 1000pts just a little short at 163 models. It's all clan skryre so nicely themed wasn't sure if I should drop mortars but I think the will be useful always wounds on 5 and Small template and no armour saves will be good for stuff with heavy armour like chaos warriors lizards dwarfs. If not just drop clan rats take 6 blocks of slaves and some poison wind globadiers but I think the range on the mortar will be worth it
 

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(2500/1000)*100 = 250 models. You're a little more than a little off, but I've never heard that rule before, so I don't know how much it would make a difference.

Bell's on a 60x100, so displaces 15 Skaven. That horde is 10x5 with 7 models as over-spill.

Thing to keep in mind with the Wind Mortars is that they might have a hard time hitting the kinds of units that you want to target them into. Stuff like Crushers, Knights and so forth. Likewise, it's 1W for everyone touched, it won't stack up. Figure you get lucky, hit 6 guys, and you're going to kill off 2 of them. You'll almost never hit 6 Knights.
If you want to keep the mortar-like effects, you can give the champs in each regiment a Death Globe, for less than half the cost of the Mortar. It's still a thrown weapon, and it's 1-use-only, but like I said: half the cost of a Mortar.
Remember that Globadiers also have Quick to Fire and are Skirmishers, so the range is as much of an issue - you can fire on the march and without the -1 for Moving.
Favorite tactic in my area for keeping them safe, is to run them 2xWhatever and stick them between two big regiments, 1" away from the front line. Few enemy regiments are narrow enough to fit into that gap. With "Life is Cheap" you can toss Orbs to either side when your army gets engaged, and if you find yourself in combat, a narrow formation is better thanks to "Volley from the Back".
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 · (Edited)
Ok that makes sense might do that as the mortars are a massive points sink. And if I do that I might shift to slaves to give me more units and 3 more storm vermin to finish up the horde of them with and almost army wide ld 8 that should hopefully help. So what you reckon 2 units of 10 poison wind globadiers?

what about warp fire throwers with str 5 ap d3 shooting?
 

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what about warp fire throwers with str 5 ap d3 shooting?
'Damage (D3)' means that they have the 'Multiple Wounds (D3)' special rule. The 'Save -2' is the Armor Pen value. Don't know why the Skaven book did that, confused my friend who played as well.

Anyways, Warpfire Throwers are Move/Fire, making them pretty shoddy in my opinion. If Skaven had some kind of Core shooting attack, like handgunners or bowmen, then I could see making use of Move/Fire weapons like that - putting shots downrange as the enemy came towards you. Unfortunately (for Skaven) they have to advance into combat if they want to win games, and that means the Fire Throwers are left trudging up alongside them, doing nothing. The only thing they're good for, is suicidally making an S&S reaction while standing in front of the target unit. Maybe as some kind of chaff. Unfortunately (again; for Skaven), they only have 1W, meaning that they're going to eat crap on the way across the table, and be dead before they fulfill their purpose. Plus, for all these shortcomings, they cost even more than the Mortars!
 

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Eh? Like I said, I'm going with what I've seen personally. The Mortars seem to be the most popular option, but I don't know if it's just done as an alternative to the expensive Globadier models, or because it counts as Core or what. I don't see a lot of Weapons teams when I play against Skaven though, so maybe they're not all that popular.
One player that I faced off against had a pretty okay point about giving every unit that could, a Weapon Team and then leaving them behind as though they were just a unit of their own. He used Ratling Guns, and my friend tried a similar thing with Flayers. The results were sort of here-and-there. The deployment of the units is the hardest part, since they have to be within 3" of the parent when they drop in. I remember the Flayers being rather useless at anything except soaking up shots for a round. The Ratling Guns weren't bad, he had them set up between Clan Rat units so that he had two "units" of 2, and they were kind of worrisome but again - with 1W they're really easy to kill once the Parent goes away from them.

I think you have to compare them to what you could get, really. For example, the Mortar compared to Globadiers, and the Ratling Guns compared to Jezzail Teams. I'd think that the Ratling Guns and Jezzails are almost comparable, with the Ratling Gun being more accurate (oddly enough) and getting a lot more shots than 2 Jezzails would. However, if a Jezzail does hit, he's going to rip apart the target, with S6 and a -4 to saves.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Cap I really appreciate your advise I originally thought ratling guns but they are strength 4 and if I can fit them I am going to take 3 storm fiends with ratling cannons as that's 9d6 strength 5 armour piercing shot. Thing is I would have to drop something in rare as it would be over the points allowance.
 

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Eh? Like I said, I'm going with what I've seen personally. The Mortars seem to be the most popular option, but I don't know if it's just done as an alternative to the expensive Globadier models, or because it counts as Core or what. I don't see a lot of Weapons teams when I play against Skaven though, so maybe they're not all that popular.

...

I think you have to compare them to what you could get, really. For example, the Mortar compared to Globadiers, and the Ratling Guns compared to Jezzail Teams. I'd think that the Ratling Guns and Jezzails are almost comparable, with the Ratling Gun being more accurate (oddly enough) and getting a lot more shots than 2 Jezzails would. However, if a Jezzail does hit, he's going to rip apart the target, with S6 and a -4 to saves.
Now that you mention it, I haven't seen a lot of weapons teams either. I also like the mortars for the range and the ability to take chunks out of massed units - I'm figuring 3-4 models per shot, if you hit - (though I haven't playtested any of this yet), and on paper, I like Jezzail teams better than ratling guns (if only for the fact that they will almost certainly wound if they hit, and there is almost no chance of an armor save). That said, the fewer shots could be a big issue. I'm going to test a game or two each way and see what I come up with.

Let us know how the ratling guns fare! I'm interested to hear the outcome of that.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I was thinking which in itself is a danger the thing I wanted the mortars for was to hit infantry blocks and denying armour that said I have looked at the rules for the plague claw catapult and it looks like it could do a similar job?
 

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Now that you mention it, I haven't seen a lot of weapons teams either. I also like the mortars for the range and the ability to take chunks out of massed units - I'm figuring 3-4 models per shot, if you hit - (though I haven't playtested any of this yet), and on paper, I like Jezzail teams better than ratling guns (if only for the fact that they will almost certainly wound if they hit, and there is almost no chance of an armor save). That said, the fewer shots could be a big issue. I'm going to test a game or two each way and see what I come up with.

Let us know how the ratling guns fare! I'm interested to hear the outcome of that.
Ratling guns are hard to "math-hammer", but I can try my hand at it. I've found one example which seems to confirm that it's going to take binomial distribution and a bit of abstraction. So anyways:

1 shot = 3.5 hits, 0% misfire
2 shot = 7 hits, 16.7% misfire
3 shot = 10.5 hits, 1-(5/6)(4/6) = 44.4% misfire
4 shot = 13.5 hits, 1-(5/6)(4/6)(3/6) = 72.2% misfire

These abstraction comes from the fact that the result will not always be 3.5, because for example, if you roll a 6 on your first die, then the subsequent die will average out to (5+1)/2 = 3, not 3.5, and so on as you begin to discount numbers. Roughly speaking, the average will probably remain hovering around 3.5 per die, when you average all successful rolls together.
I wouldn't suggest firing more than 3 dice worth of shot, because at that point, the chance of a misfire not only exceeds 50% (meaning you are more likely to blow up than actually fire) but leaps dangerously close to 75%. So lets assume you fire 3 dice worth of shots, for a total of 10.5 shots.

10.5 shots, hit on 4+, multiplied by inverse chance of misfire (.56)
2.94 hits - armor doesn't kick in until the enemy has at least a 4+
T3 = 1.96w || 4+ 1.63 | 3+ 1.31 | 2+ .98 | 1+ .65
T4 = 1.47w || 4+ 1.23 | 3+ 0.98 | 2+ .74 | 1+ .49
T5 = 0.98w || 4+ 0.82 | 3+ 0.65 | 2+ .49 | 1+ .33

By comparison, the Jezzail Teams get 2.75 shots per 1 Ratling Gun. We'll assume that the Ratling is firing at maximum range, which is half range (no penalty) for Jezzail teams
2.75 hit on 4+ = 1.38 hits
Being that the weapons are S6, we only need to test T4 and T5 from the above example (both T3 and T4 are wounded on 2+). Furthermore, -4 to armor means we only need to test for armor starting at 2+

T3 = 1.15w || 4+ 1.15w | 3+ 1.15w | 2+ .96w | 1+ .77w
T4 = 1.15w || 4+ 1.15w | 3+ 1.15w | 2+ .96w | 1+ .77w
T5 = 0.92w || 4+ 0.92w | 3+ 0.92w | 2+ .76w | 1+ .61w

So as you can see, Ratling Guns are better when used to fire against T3 or T4 targets with worse than a 3+ save, whereas Jezzails are better at taking down tough, thickly armored targets. The results are slightly skewed, because when a Ratling gun does fire, the actual damage will be much higher, we just cannot ignore that Ratling Guns have the potential to misfire and negate their entire shooting attack altogether.

Unfortunately, it is impossible to Math-hammer a Plague Wind Mortar, because there is no way to simulate the scatter effect other than writing a whole computer code for it, or just firing the thing at a target several times and recording the results. Clan Skyre wish-wishes you to make this your short-life's work!!

I would say that, unless you need the points in your Core, Jezzail teams will out-perform Ratling guns. The fact that they can fire from 36" means that even though an individual volley is less effective, they will get more volleys against the same target over the course of the game. Furthermore, suffering 1w on Jezzails reduces their effectiveness by roughly half, whereas losing one wound from a Ratling Gun removes the weapon from play altogether. Jezzails are also armored, which helps, especially if you plan on leaving your Ratling Guns behind and moving the "parent unit" away from them.

Cap I really appreciate your advise I originally thought ratling guns but they are strength 4 and if I can fit them I am going to take 3 storm fiends with ratling cannons as that's 9d6 strength 5 armour piercing shot. Thing is I would have to drop something in rare as it would be over the points allowance.
I would drop a Wheel then. The Wheel is the most unreliable of the two options you already have in Rare, and the Fiends can cover a similar role (moving up towards the enemy and firing all the way). The Warp Lightning Cannon is more reliable and has a similar effect to that of the wheel (blasting apart armor).

I was thinking which in itself is a danger the thing I wanted the mortars for was to hit infantry blocks and denying armour that said I have looked at the rules for the plague claw catapult and it looks like it could do a similar job?
The thing is, how good is the armor of something that you can reliably wound with a S2 hit? We're talking a 5+ to wound T3 targets here, and short of Elves, I think you'd be hard-pressed to find anything with T3 and better than a 5+ save (even amongst Elves that's rare). Hitting someone with a mere -2 to Armor would be enough to negate those kinds of saves (Ratling Guns...).
I think that Skaven is an army that will do fine in handling fights against horde/chaff type stuff like Goblins and opposing Skaven. What they need help with is punching down armored stuff like Chaos Warriors. Even if you hit the Warriors dead on with the Plague Claw and say, got a regiment of 18, you'll only kill on average 3 of them. Compare that to shooting 5 Jezzails into the guys (same price), and you would have slain 2 of them. I think that for what you want, Jezzails and Mortars (wound on 5+ all the time, no saves) would be more useful than the Catapult.
This is backed up, too - I have never seen a Catapult in a Skaven army.
 

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Hah, thanks guys. Now I'm debating writing a program to calculate scatter probabilities over time. Since they're discrete values with set probabilities, it should be something like.... 1/6 chance of hit, 1/6 * 1/360 chance that the center of the template is on any given point within 2", 4,6,8,10...., and 1/6 chance of misfire. That will give scatter "rings" of hits... so ... realistically you'd want to set the mortar so that the center is a multiple of 2". I'm not calculating that now, (and don't have matlab on this pc). That would be interesting to see, though!
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
This might be a silly question but I can't see the answer any where but the doom wheels warp lightning is that resolved the same as the spell?
 

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Pretty sure it's a shooting attack that autohits. I think it's explained pretty clearly on the Doomwheel page of the skaven book, but I'll double check tonight.
 
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