Librarium Online Forums banner
1 - 20 of 34 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
34 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Could do with some advice on this one please.

Firstly I can not find this in the BRB, and therefore assume that fearless units that lose combat v an all power weapon unit must take the wounds (no retreat) as if inflicted by power weapons (ie no armour saves). If they do not have an inv save then the amount of models equalling excess wounds are removed instantly.

Providing that statement is correct? What happens when you have a victorious unit with mixed cc weapon’s. Are the wounds taken as power weapons, or normal cc weapons or a mix of, and if so how is that calculated?

I acknowledge this does not come up very often as most fearless units have inv saves, but SM’s subject to sweeping advance can fall foul of this with no retreat.

It might be that excess wounds always get a save regardless of what weapons were used in the original combat, which solves the problem instantly?

Many thanks.
 

·
The ORIGINAL Sniper Puss
Joined
·
2,841 Posts
"No Retreat" says that "All types of saving throws except cover saves can be taken against these wounds". It also says in the example that "...yadda yadda yadda...and will take three armour saves". So basically yes, models suffering wounds from No Retreat! will always be able to attempt to negate the wounds by using their own Save, whether that be an invulnerable or a normal armour save. Just remember that the wounds caused by the No Retreat! rule are only the result of a mathematical function, not from a particular type of weapon, and you won't go wrong.

E.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,709 Posts
I had a question about this topic: I play the Chaos Daemons and my son plays the Space Marines. My Bloodletters lit in to his Tactical Squad with his Marines failing their leadership. I caught them in a sweeping advance, but I was told that he could get armour saves even though I was using power weapons that do not allow armour saves. Again in the rules it says "All types of saving throws except cover saves can be taken against these wounds". Now am I missing something? How can you get an armour save against weapons that cut through armour and do not allow an armour save? Also, does anyone know why Skulltaker has a ballistic score and no ballistic weapon? Does it bother anyone else that the Chaos Daemons cannot assault on the round they Deep Strike or that they could lose half their army simply by Deep Striking on the first turn? I wish I knew then what I know now.
D.
 

·
Scourge Lord
Joined
·
1,638 Posts
Charybdis is right. The wounds from No Retreat represent the unit getting overrun since they are not willing or able to fall back. Since all attacks from various weapons have already been determined for that round of close combat, it doesn't really make sense to think of these wounds as being from additional attacks. Think instead of these wounds being caused because the unit is getting trampled, cornered, or surrounded by onrushing forces they were unable to stop.
 

·
Son of LO
Joined
·
3,930 Posts
Again in the rules it says "All types of saving throws except cover saves can be taken against these wounds". Now am I missing something? How can you get an armour save against weapons that cut through armour and do not allow an armour save?
Because it would be overpowered, as well as unnecessarily complicated in scenarios with mixed weapon types - which are ludicrously common given the amount of power fists/claws you get in most infantry squads.

Also, does anyone know why Skulltaker has a ballistic score and no ballistic weapon?
Because every model requires a ballistic score in order to have a complete statline, regardless of whether or not they're actually armed with a gun.

Think of it as how well he could shoot a gun if he had a gun. Which he does not.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,709 Posts
But why bother with a ballistic score in the first place; most Chaos Daemons have a ballistic score of zero anyway (bloodletters, daemonettes, plaguebearers, screamers. beasts of nurgle etc, etc)? To me, you include a Ballistic score because your model has a weapon to fire at a distance, not just to fill in a stat line.
 

·
Scourge Lord
Joined
·
1,638 Posts
It very possibly could be an oversight. Perhaps the unit was originally going to have a shooting attack, but that was taken out during editing.
Rulesmakers are not infallible! :)
 

·
The Future
Joined
·
4,848 Posts
Also, does anyone know why Skulltaker has a ballistic score and no ballistic weapon?
There are several occasions I can think of that it'd come into play - manually firing automated weapons in planetstrike for one.
Does it bother anyone else that the Chaos Daemons cannot assault on the round they Deep Strike or that they could lose half their army simply by Deep Striking on the first turn?
If this wasn't the case, daemons would be twice the point cost and would probably never lose a battle. The not-assaulting thing is a game balancing issue, as otherwise a pure DS army could just murder their opponents turn one without a shot being fired at them. The odds of losing a unit is taking into account in the fact you get deepstriking troops with power weapons and an invulnerable save for less than the cost of a space marine! Bear in mind if my SM army wants a squad with inv save and power weapons it'll cost me something like 50 points per model...

Incidentally if you want to assault after deep strike, try playing planetstrike.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,709 Posts
But do you also see that of all armies in the Warhammer 40K system, Chaos Daemons are missing an Errata and FAQ? From what I've read on forums on the internet, people are screaming for one.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,709 Posts
Chaos Space Marines can summon Daemons and they can assault in the same round! I'm saying their has to be a balance of some sort; in my experience, my daemons get shot up before even being able to attack. They either have to move to cover and move a long way to assault or deep strike in close and get shot up anyway or have a Deep Strike mishap which happens often on smaller tables (it seems) and have your armies destroyed or misplaced by the enemy. It hasn't been very often that I've had my Bloodletters or Daemonettes move into a postion to attack without losing more than half of them in the enemies shooting phase even in cover. Necrons can also phase about the battlefield and attack in the round that they do so in certain circumstances; of course they can fire weapons as well. Just remember, most Chaos Daemons cannot shoot!
 

·
Junior Member
Joined
·
3,395 Posts
Chaos Space Marines can summon Daemons and they can assault in the same round!
Chaos space marines can summon the short-bus bloodletters - they are nearly as expensive and come without such useful things as furious charge, WS 5, and power weapons.

In short, and repeating Realitycheque, the CSM daemons are paying for their deepstrike assault in points and DS restrictions(icons) - if CSM daemons could do the same you'd have to expect to pay much more (though at least one expensive 'vanguard' style unit would have been a godsend for them)
 

·
Too Sexy For My Whirlwind
Joined
·
1,148 Posts
Chaos SM daemons are crap compared to Chaos Daemons daemons, hence the difference in assaulting on the turn they arrive. As mentioned, the Chaos Daemons have multiple very heavy duty CC units, additionally if you take tzeentch daemons they also have some decent shooters. If your running into problems with your daemons getting shot up it means your strategy is wrong, or your list might have some problems. Try sending in only nurgle daemons on your first wave, and have them all carrying chaos icons so your units deepstriking around them in the following turns don't scatter. The nurgle daemons can take a beating better than most and on your next turn you can run/charge them at them enemy to give some cover to your other daemons.

This is of course just a very simple rundown but onestly chaos daemons are a fairly solid army list so if your running into these quite basic problems perhaps go browse the chaos daemons forum for a bit to see if you can't get your list/tactics worked out a little.
 

·
The Future
Joined
·
4,848 Posts
I'm saying their has to be a balance of some sort; in my experience, my daemons get shot up before even being able to attack. They either have to move to cover and move a long way to assault or deep strike in close and get shot up anyway or have a Deep Strike mishap which happens often on smaller tables (it seems) and have your armies destroyed or misplaced by the enemy. It hasn't been very often that I've had my Bloodletters or Daemonettes move into a postion to attack without losing more than half of them in the enemies shooting phase even in cover.
As I said before, the balance is in your stupidly low costs - most of your models would be higher costs in other armies, the fact you only have half left is probably intended.
Necrons can also phase about the battlefield and attack in the round that they do so in certain circumstances
They are not deep striking, they're coming on as if the Monolith is the table edge - which is paid for in the cost of the Monolith.
of course they can fire weapons as well. Just remember, most Chaos Daemons cannot shoot!
So why not lead with models that CAN shoot? Drop in shooting troops with icons first, then the rest can beam down around them. Hell you might even be able to combine AT's advice with this if you can get Nurgle daemons with shooting attacks, drop those down with icons and you've a solid bulwark to build your force around.

TBH I think you just need to learn how to use daemons properly, we've an ex-tau now-daemon player in our group and he LOVES they way they work because he's figured out how to focus on their strengths and mitigate their weaknesses. Post a list you usually take in the Daemon's Army List forum and post a link to it here, and I'll let you know what our daemon player does differently.
 

·
Junior Member
Joined
·
3,395 Posts
Hell you might even be able to combine AT's advice with...
(Sabe's advice)

The local daemons player suffered initially from being too timid with his daemons, it didn't really work for him. Dropping stuff much closer in has improved his fortunes.
 

·
Member
Joined
·
725 Posts
But why bother with a ballistic score in the first place; most Chaos Daemons have a ballistic score of zero anyway (bloodletters, daemonettes, plaguebearers, screamers. beasts of nurgle etc, etc)? To me, you include a Ballistic score because your model has a weapon to fire at a distance, not just to fill in a stat line.
If your a expert marksman using a rifle, do your become an average marksman when you don't have your gun. Remember, Skulltaker is a herald, heralds on chariots may take Death strike which uses the ballistic skill. Therefore, the fluff of a BS score, even though he can not take Death Strike acording to his rules.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,709 Posts
I have the following army models: ( I just started collecting before Christmas) 13 Bloodletters, 10 Daemonettes, 2 Beasts of Nurgle, 5 Pink Horrors (although I perfer to play one as a Changling and one outfitted with the Bolt of Tzeentch), 1 Skulltaker, 1 Masque, 1 Daemon Prince for about 1025 points. Shooting models are not as plentiful as other army types. So what, more Flamers and Pink Horrors? Hey, I'm just learning; don't think of me as being arguementative, just green at this. Any advice I can get is welcome. I've played about 10 games with this army and never won with different strategies each time. The worst is losing models in a Deep Strike mishap. I think that Games Workshop should make a new Chaos Daemon model that you could use at any time during deep striking that uses it's Ballistic Skill against the scatter die roll much like the BS is used on blast templates to scatter. That way you still have a chance to mishap, but the likelyhood is less and you have to spend the extra points on it.
Now are you saying that Necrons, once on the board, cannot under any circumstances, teleport about the board? In my last battle, they guy playing Necrons did and then attacked. Heck, I don't know the Necron codex! I do know about the Phase Out rule though. I also knew they could deep strike safely through the Monolith. I kinda like the Necrons; is there anyone out there that like the Necrons? I'm thinking of collecting them after I get a good selection of Chaos Daemons together.
D.
 

·
Junior Member
Joined
·
3,395 Posts
Now are you saying that Necrons, once on the board, cannot under any circumstances, teleport about the board?
Necrons can be teleported through monoliths during the game (as in picked up off the table and moved).
Necron lords can also take wargear allowing them and their squad to redeploy.
 
1 - 20 of 34 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top