I have to say, i heartily disagree with this post - and not just because i'm a 3 year tzeentch veteran. Yes, thousand sons did get vaguely nerfed, but with the incidence of the new slow and purposeful rules and the fact that they don't take psychic tests, there are several things about them that aren't broken.northoceanbeach said:They have the most powerful magic in the game...... except Slaanesh. Slaanesh has way better minor powers and access to most of the same psychic powers Tzeentch does. Oh and Daemonhunters. And the new SM librarian powers are better than the Tzeentch ones. Oh Farseers in the Eldar army definitely are better psychers. So.....basically Tzeentch only has one good psychic power the Bolt of Change, and that is only because they can't have any decent weapons. It's 30 points for god's sake, and you would be better of spending about a third that for a melta or plama gun or something.
So I don't get them really. I had to descide on an army last month, and I thought heavily about Tzeentch. I like the way they look, their story, but their rules are atrocious. So I didn't get them. I don't get the fact that they are supposed to be major Psychers, but didn't get much cool psychic stuff. Oh well.
If you do get them, probably best to start with a Sorceror blister, 2 boxes of the troops, on terminator box, and a predator. I think that would give you a nice little starter army.
I still like them though, I just wish their rules were better.
Aye, the inferno bolt had me wanting a Tzeentch kill team - or better yet- Tzeentch lead LatD with a couple squads of Thousand Sons. Keep in mind I'm a Khorne man, but that inferno bolt is pretty darn cool.Lordofchange said:They have some cool wargear too - inferno bolts are just fun as hell, especially on a marine with a storm bolter. The warp blade is excellent against tyranids and other heavily psychic races. The bedlam staff - it's a thunder hammer, without the doubling, but it's not slow!
Think about it this way, AC's can have up to 19 wounds for the squad (the slow empty hulks of the thousand sons have 2 wounds each), plus you can have 6 of them as troops. Then you have thrall wizards who allow them to do the work of two psykers. You just have to know what you're doing with Tzeentch and the advantage is nobody else will. Not to mention you can take an entire squad psykers (albeit expensive psykers) in the form of possessed maraines.northoceanbeach said:Well, that's the problem with Tzeentch, all the good stuff can only be taken Characters and AC's and they only have one wound.
Ok, hq sorcerers hit on a 2+ and get 2 shots with a thrall wizard giving them roughly a 50% chance of glancing or penetrating. The chances for an AC would get about a 37% chance of doing the same. Now multiply that by 8 or more. That's a dead tank.northoceanbeach said:The bolt of change isn't exactly a tank killer either. S8 ain't THAT good. If I shot two missle launchers at a predator, IF, IF they both hit, I would have to roll 5's just for a glancing hit. Probably not happening. YOu need a whole squad of Havocs with missile launchers and tank hunters(which of coarse Tzeentch can't have) to really have a good chance of tank busting. Or melta guns. Again, Tzeentch can't take.
Personally i have learned it to be a mistake to put GoC on things with movement upgrades - because once there is the first spawn, it slows down the unit to infantry movement.Also, it's good to note that possessed/chosed marines are all AUTOMATICALLY upgraded to sorceror status for ZERO extra points. Although it would be a big point sink, wouldn't it just be AWESOME to have a huge squad of possessed marines, give em daemonic flight, and give them all the 'gift of change' (also don't forget that they too automatically pass all psychic tests). Charge em' into something, and BAM, you got an army of chaos spawns (providing they dont just kill the enemy in the initial assault).
...and exactly that should be the theme of the whole army. A single fragile squad in it, such as chosen, renders the resilience of the others irrelevant as long as it lives. It's like taking an infantry platoon in an armoured company - suddenly all those enemy anti infantry weapons have a target.Relentlessness and extreme durability are the words of today.
If you field three squads, Two with the standard 8 TS w/AC in rhino's and one with 17 TS w/AC, you've got a HUGE 34 fearless wounds before you get to the AC. Add four thralls and it is a slow fire base that will run you around 500 pts. It takes a couple of rounds of massed fire to dent this unit. It would be foolish to let this fearless 35 wound unit walk up to you while it is throwing two BOC and 17-34 bolter shots a turn. This leaves space for other units to move. It is SO big some players will shoot it instead of Dreds or predators.hsin_dragon said:Think about it this way, AC's can have up to 19 wounds for the squad (the slow empty hulks of the thousand sons have 2 wounds each), plus you can have 6 of them as troops. Then you have thrall wizards who allow them to do the work of two psykers. You just have to know what you're doing with Tzeentch and the advantage is nobody else will. Not to mention you can take an entire squad psykers (albeit expensive psykers) in the form of possessed maraines.
By all means, no! Go ahead and do an "impure" thousand sons army. Often, the play styles between that and a pure thousand sons army vary drastically and it may even be more of a challenge. It really just depends on what kind of army floats your boat, and if that's the one, go for it.Is there anything particularly -wrong- with this approach? It was the one I was planning on doing, especially considering I do -not- find the Thousand Son models attractive. I realize that if you are MoT, you are Thousand Sons. I also like the flexibility of being able to bring some odd things to the mix.
Oh, i didn't mean to belittle the flamers - they're devastating indeed. But the way i see them, they're better in the style of a "heavy weapon trooper" amongst the horrors than an entire squad. But it could work differently, i will admit that i've never tried it another way.The Flamers are mentioned by Lord of Change, but I think they are better then he gives them credit for. The Horrors on the other hand are quite bad against MEQs anyway, but the Flamers are devastating.
But they're also the only daemons with two wounds. And i assume by "the other chaos powers" you mean bloodletters, as does everyone. Bloodletters are also 26 points, and are vulnerable to gunfire, whereas a decent size horror squad will take A LOT of damage. For the 17 points you pay for one horror, you get what you pay for. And if you don't like them, don't take them.having played AGAINST thousand sons many times I would say they have lot of potential however I actually think there greatest weakness is there deamons. Considering there cost they simply don't do enough damage and are too vulnerable to close assault attacks. Especially compared to other Chaos powers the deamons of Tzeentch are quite dissapointing
And you wouldn't think that daemon hunters would have an easy time against daemons would you?! I mean...it's as if daemon hunters were designed to kill daemons!I also found that playing against them as Deamon hunters was remarkable easy.
I gotta say, you have a real talent for stating the obvious. The fact is, a good strong hand to hand unit or a character with a power weapon can cut through nearly any space marine unit. And as for your example of berserkers and a decent AC - erm...well, they're kinda designed for combat - it's the point of khorne - so it's natural that they're good in combat. So that is really a moot point. And as for cutting out their main advantage of shooting - same with devastators, same with havocs, same with any type of unit. If someone is in combat, they can't shoot. You've done little more than tell us something we already know.Of course a good hand to hand unit can cut through Thousand sons quite quickly (world eater 8 strong (inc AC) gets 33 attacks on the charge. which isn't enough to kill the unit but it certainly cuts out their main advantage of laaying down a hail of fire (not to mention the fact that a power weapon armed characters can do some serious damage).