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theres a 30% off clearance in some local store and i wanna buy some crap
ok im a noob and was wondering if u guys could lay down the facts of what i need to know about a Tzeentch army
 

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well, Tzeentch. Fluffwise Tzeentch is the lord of change. he is change incarnate. he is a master spellweaver, and of trickery. none can match his magic might and most of the sorcerors of chaos worship him. Tzeentch manipulates mortals to no end because he can forsee the future and moulds the galaxy to his liking. The most renowned chapter of chaos that follows Tzeentch is the Thousand Sons. The Thousand Sons betrayed The Emperor in the horus heresy and found praise under Tzeentch. The primarch of the thousand sons is Magnus the Red, renowned for his single cyclopean eye. The Thousand Sons are no longer flesh and bone, but rather dust. their souls are now entomber in their armor and they still fight on in Tzeentchs' name. anyways, about their gameplay, the thousand sons are tough and slow so you are going to need long range weapons. also you get powerful sorcery, that only the eldar can possibly match. well thats all i know, im an ork player myself. hope this helps! good luck!
 

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they are tough to take down. my friend plays 'em, and he has 4000pts. i cry at night after gaming. they wre also turned to dust by some sorcerers spell, and i guess trhat i only took out the ones without helmets. it also gets colder near them because their power armor sucks the energy from the environment to be able move. pretty sweet tactically, and fluffwise.
 

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They have the most powerful magic in the game...... except Slaanesh. Slaanesh has way better minor powers and access to most of the same psychic powers Tzeentch does. Oh and Daemonhunters. And the new SM librarian powers are better than the Tzeentch ones. Oh Farseers in the Eldar army definitely are better psychers. So.....basically Tzeentch only has one good psychic power the Bolt of Change, and that is only because they can't have any decent weapons. It's 30 points for god's sake, and you would be better of spending about a third that for a melta or plama gun or something.

So I don't get them really. I had to descide on an army last month, and I thought heavily about Tzeentch. I like the way they look, their story, but their rules are atrocious. So I didn't get them. I don't get the fact that they are supposed to be major Psychers, but didn't get much cool psychic stuff. Oh well.

If you do get them, probably best to start with a Sorceror blister, 2 boxes of the troops, on terminator box, and a predator. I think that would give you a nice little starter army.

I still like them though, I just wish their rules were better.
 

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northoceanbeach said:
They have the most powerful magic in the game...... except Slaanesh. Slaanesh has way better minor powers and access to most of the same psychic powers Tzeentch does. Oh and Daemonhunters. And the new SM librarian powers are better than the Tzeentch ones. Oh Farseers in the Eldar army definitely are better psychers. So.....basically Tzeentch only has one good psychic power the Bolt of Change, and that is only because they can't have any decent weapons. It's 30 points for god's sake, and you would be better of spending about a third that for a melta or plama gun or something.

So I don't get them really. I had to descide on an army last month, and I thought heavily about Tzeentch. I like the way they look, their story, but their rules are atrocious. So I didn't get them. I don't get the fact that they are supposed to be major Psychers, but didn't get much cool psychic stuff. Oh well.

If you do get them, probably best to start with a Sorceror blister, 2 boxes of the troops, on terminator box, and a predator. I think that would give you a nice little starter army.

I still like them though, I just wish their rules were better.
I have to say, i heartily disagree with this post - and not just because i'm a 3 year tzeentch veteran. Yes, thousand sons did get vaguely nerfed, but with the incidence of the new slow and purposeful rules and the fact that they don't take psychic tests, there are several things about them that aren't broken.

Slaanesh powers - as you said, they are MINOR powers. They also require a psychic test to use, and are terrible for basing a strategy around as they are random. I don't like paying fifty-odd points so you definitely get the power you want. Slaanesh also has a distinct lack of offensive powers. They also do not have access to the twisting path, bolt of change, any Tzeentch minor powers, and have to pay extra to be a sorcerer. Not as great a deal as tzeentch, i'd say.

Daemonhunters...well it really depends on what you define as "better" - their powers are mainly focused on destroying daemons, and Tzeentch can do that on it's own. You also have to remember that fluffwise, all grey knights are slightly psychic, whereas all thousand sons are not. So it's practically a given their powers are going to be pretty good.

SM librarians - yes, their psychic powers are good. But they're also fairly high points, and most of the really good ones are combined to combat -vortex of doom isn't that good.

Eldar Farseers - this is a joke, right? Farseers, even being some of the oldest psykers in the galaxy have, comparatively speaking, some of the WORST selection of powers in the game. Eldritch storm - oh wow, my massive blast that i paid 35 points for killed...a gaunt. Fortune - it's a good power, but simply keeps the psyker alive longer...why? He's not even that good in combat. Guide is worth the points, but still means the farseer has to stand at the back of the board with the big shooter unit where he should be. The only powers i'd say are really good are destructor and mind war - enhance included there if the warlock is attached to a squad.

Don't bash bolt of change - do you realise what you're paying for? It's an assault krak missile, that, with the aid of some thrall wizards, can kill two terminators a turn, or blow up any vehicle. I take it on all my aspiring champions, and it does wonders.

They have some cool wargear too - inferno bolts are just fun as hell, especially on a marine with a storm bolter. The warp blade is excellent against tyranids and other heavily psychic races. The bedlam staff - it's a thunder hammer, without the doubling, but it's not slow!

As for the starter army, i wouldn't recommend terminators - trust me, you wouldn't have nearly enough points. First of all, go out, and buy or convert yourself a sorcerer - i personally think conversion is better as i didn't think that any of the current sorcerer range truly represent thousand sons. Then get two boxes of thousand sons (and preferably an extra one per 500 points of Chaos) and some kind of fire support - a lascannon predator or missile launcher and lascannon dreadnought - trust me, if you overwhelm the enemy with gunfire, you don't need the uber combat ability. Then grab yourself a space filler - horrors (with a few flamers scattered in) or even a second dreadnought, this one configured with lascannon and close combat weapon. Or a defiler. It's up to you.

Anything more i say would simply be repeating the thoughts in my tactica - found here:
http://www.librarium-online.com/content/view/127/2/

Good luck with your thousand sons - trust me, you might fail with them for a little while, but soon you'll succeed nearly every game and it'll be very satisfying.

LoC
 

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Lordofchange said:
They have some cool wargear too - inferno bolts are just fun as hell, especially on a marine with a storm bolter. The warp blade is excellent against tyranids and other heavily psychic races. The bedlam staff - it's a thunder hammer, without the doubling, but it's not slow!
LoC
Aye, the inferno bolt had me wanting a Tzeentch kill team - or better yet- Tzeentch lead LatD with a couple squads of Thousand Sons. Keep in mind I'm a Khorne man, but that inferno bolt is pretty darn cool.

The hats aren't half bad either.
 

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Well, that's the problem with Tzeentch, all the good stuff can only be taken Characters and AC's and they only have one wound. The Inferno bolts are ten points but just make a bolter have a blast marker instead, which usually gets one more hit, compared to giving an AC a power weapon, which costs the same, but ignores the armour of 3+ guys at the same strength of the bolts

Now, you mentioned that normal psychers have to take a test and they will fail and then everyone will shoot them to pieces. Well, how often do you really fail a psychic test? I mean come on. And you can always for any army buy a warp talisman for if during the game you do fail a test you can reroll it. Not really making the 10 points for sorceror with no test worth it. Psychic powers in this game just do NOT play a very big roll. And they make this army sorcerors, yet they giv e them nothing that really stands out.

The bolt of change isn't exactly a tank killer either. S8 ain't THAT good. If I shot two missle launchers at a predator, IF, IF they both hit, I would have to roll 5's just for a glancing hit. Probably not happening. YOu need a whole squad of Havocs with missile launchers and tank hunters(which of coarse Tzeentch can't have) to really have a good chance of tank busting. Or melta guns. Again, Tzeentch can't take.
 

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northoceanbeach said:
Well, that's the problem with Tzeentch, all the good stuff can only be taken Characters and AC's and they only have one wound.
Think about it this way, AC's can have up to 19 wounds for the squad (the slow empty hulks of the thousand sons have 2 wounds each), plus you can have 6 of them as troops. Then you have thrall wizards who allow them to do the work of two psykers. You just have to know what you're doing with Tzeentch and the advantage is nobody else will. Not to mention you can take an entire squad psykers (albeit expensive psykers) in the form of possessed maraines.

northoceanbeach said:
The bolt of change isn't exactly a tank killer either. S8 ain't THAT good. If I shot two missle launchers at a predator, IF, IF they both hit, I would have to roll 5's just for a glancing hit. Probably not happening. YOu need a whole squad of Havocs with missile launchers and tank hunters(which of coarse Tzeentch can't have) to really have a good chance of tank busting. Or melta guns. Again, Tzeentch can't take.
Ok, hq sorcerers hit on a 2+ and get 2 shots with a thrall wizard giving them roughly a 50% chance of glancing or penetrating. The chances for an AC would get about a 37% chance of doing the same. Now multiply that by 8 or more. That's a dead tank.
But this doesn't consider the fact that tzeentch can still take 3 predators of their own each armed with, essentially, 4 lascannons.
 

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Yeah, I have to agree fully with hsin_dragon and lord_of_change on this thread. Tzeentch is seriously one of the most competitive chaos armies out there right now (same as deathguard and word bearers). Thousand Sons marines are pretty solid.

Yeah, ok, they're slow in CC, but with 16-18 wounds protecting your AC, he's gonna get to make A LOT of attacks by the end of the game (most likely). Inferno bolts ARE fun, not the most effective use of points, but against nids or ork they can be totally obscene...ESPECIALLY in rapid fire range.

Bolt of Change is AMAZING. As said, it's an assault Krak missile with AP2. And yes, it will bust up most tanks pretty well. You have to consider the fact that your average vehicle is going to be armor 11-13, only requiring a roll of 3+-5+ to damage it. As said, with 2 shots a turn from EACH sorceror (in my army I could take 6 shots a turn), you've got one dead tank/terminator squad. For the bigger stuff, I take 2 preds decked out with lascannons for taking out the big stuff (monoliths and land raiders).

Also, it's good to note that possessed/chosed marines are all AUTOMATICALLY upgraded to sorceror status for ZERO extra points. Although it would be a big point sink, wouldn't it just be AWESOME to have a huge squad of possessed marines, give em daemonic flight, and give them all the 'gift of change' (also don't forget that they too automatically pass all psychic tests). Charge em' into something, and BAM, you got an army of chaos spawns (providing they dont just kill the enemy in the initial assault).

Being able to automatically pass a psychic test IS a big deal. It makes your magic very reliable. While your space marine librarian will most likely pass all tests too with his high ld, there will always be those random moments where you REALLY wanted to use fear of darkness, but that ONE time you just HAD to roll an 11. It happens. This also prevents Tzeentch from ever suffering a perils of the warp hit (which could REALLY hurt your AC with only one wound). Also, Tzeentch has wargear that gives negative leadership modifiers to other psykers on the board, which can really start to hurt, as your librarian will have, not only a greater chance to fail a pyschic test, but also won't be able to make his psychic hood work as often.

While Tzeentch doesn't have access to some of the high end daemons (bloodletters for example), we DO have access to flamers (something that is highly overlooked). Flamers of Tzeentch absolutely ROCK. They are all equipped with assault heavy bolters (the equivalent of those). A squad of 9 of those bad boys will rock even a space marine's world. And since they each have 2 wounds, its gonna take a little extra effort to take em out.

Think what you want, we are all entitled to our own opinions, but don't say we didn't warn you when you underestimate them (like I did the first time I fought them), and end up getting massacred.
 

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I'm considering playing Tzeentch as well, so I'm going to hop into the discussion with a question.

When people talk about Tzeentch (or any other Chaos army, really) they tend to focus on the list as if it will be Thousand Sons (or Death Guard, or whatever.) As far as I can tell, there's absolutely nothing preventing a player from taking a Lord with a Mark of Tzeentch, packing in the rubric/sorcerer troop choices, and then filling in elsewhere where you need. You lose the (potential) free AC and bonus to summoning, however you gain a lot of flexibility.

Is there anything particularly -wrong- with this approach? It was the one I was planning on doing, especially considering I do -not- find the Thousand Son models attractive. I realize that if you are MoT, you are Thousand Sons. I also like the flexibility of being able to bring some odd things to the mix.
 

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There's nothing wrong with not making a specific legion. That would be known as generic chaos much like there's vanilla eldar as opposed to craftworld eldar. There's nothing wrong with the approach, its jsut different. Like you said you're trading the special point cuts and alternate army organization for versatility. If you want to do this, by all means go for. A lot of the so called dedicated armies in the army list sections (i.e. blahblah Slaanesh 2000) are actually just armies that take a majority of units with those marks of an HQ choice with the mark.
 

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Thousand Sons are indeed a very powerful army. They are not the easiest to learn but when you reach that threshold and understand how to use them...wow.

Northoceanbeach has read about them and their advantages might seem less powerful then other cultarmies such as Khorne's amazing CC-abilities or the firepower and initiative of Slaanesh. These are very obvious advantages, easy to envision what they'll be like on the board.
But those two wound troopers are absolutely rockhard. It takes a krakmissile to take one out. They move and shoot. Thralls and spells have been mentioned earlier so you know about them already.
The Flamers are mentioned by Lord of Change, but I think they are better then he gives them credit for. The Horrors on the other hand are quite bad against MEQs anyway, but the Flamers are devastating.

You might very well mix Tzeentchian units with others and there are qualities to be gained, but it also makes the weaknesses of the Rubriks larger. When you go all Tzeentch there is a rhythm in all that slowness, a consistency of bolter fire, power fists and psychic powers.
Relentlessness and extreme durability are the words of today.
 

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Also, it's good to note that possessed/chosed marines are all AUTOMATICALLY upgraded to sorceror status for ZERO extra points. Although it would be a big point sink, wouldn't it just be AWESOME to have a huge squad of possessed marines, give em daemonic flight, and give them all the 'gift of change' (also don't forget that they too automatically pass all psychic tests). Charge em' into something, and BAM, you got an army of chaos spawns (providing they dont just kill the enemy in the initial assault).
Personally i have learned it to be a mistake to put GoC on things with movement upgrades - because once there is the first spawn, it slows down the unit to infantry movement.

Relentlessness and extreme durability are the words of today.
...and exactly that should be the theme of the whole army. A single fragile squad in it, such as chosen, renders the resilience of the others irrelevant as long as it lives. It's like taking an infantry platoon in an armoured company - suddenly all those enemy anti infantry weapons have a target.
 

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having played AGAINST thousand sons many times I would say they have lot of potential however I actually think there greatest weakness is there deamons. Considering there cost they simply don't do enough damage and are too vulnerable to close assault attacks. Especially compared to other Chaos powers the deamons of Tzeentch are quite dissapointing. I also found that playing against them as Deamon hunters was remarkable easy.

On the other hand the extra wound the chaos marines gain coupled with the natural resiliance of marines does mean they are a very tough nut too crack, I would hate to face a Thousand son army that was defending a bunker complex.
 

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Depends. Doombolt is quite potent against marines, equalling a 0.33 kill chance per flamer of tzeentch.
Krak missiles and lascannons "only" get a 0.55 chance, and of course they are affected by cover while doombolt is not (against marines). BS3 doombolt is about as effective against marines as a BS4 krak missile against a marine in 5+ cover (0.33 vs 0.37).

Then again i don't like to use flamers as they don't fit the resilience theme.
 

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how often do you really fail psychic tests?

I have only played about 10 games with my farseer but with the help of a ghosthelm and runes of witnessing he has successfully killed himself about twice with his own powers.:cry:

Trust me 10 points for an extra wound and fearlessness is worth it. I know you also get slow and steady wins the race but I consider this to be almost an advantage. Sure it slows you down but it means you can fire your bolters while moving.

I disagree with Andusciassus (thats impossible to spell). Tzeentch based black legion is better then thousand sons because it means you can still take elites. Tzeentch chosen and possessed are just... useless except in larger game and you cant take obliterators.
 

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Max it out.

hsin_dragon said:
Think about it this way, AC's can have up to 19 wounds for the squad (the slow empty hulks of the thousand sons have 2 wounds each), plus you can have 6 of them as troops. Then you have thrall wizards who allow them to do the work of two psykers. You just have to know what you're doing with Tzeentch and the advantage is nobody else will. Not to mention you can take an entire squad psykers (albeit expensive psykers) in the form of possessed maraines.
If you field three squads, Two with the standard 8 TS w/AC in rhino's and one with 17 TS w/AC, you've got a HUGE 34 fearless wounds before you get to the AC. Add four thralls and it is a slow fire base that will run you around 500 pts. It takes a couple of rounds of massed fire to dent this unit. It would be foolish to let this fearless 35 wound unit walk up to you while it is throwing two BOC and 17-34 bolter shots a turn. This leaves space for other units to move. It is SO big some players will shoot it instead of Dreds or predators.
 

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Of course a good hand to hand unit can cut through Thousand sons quite quickly (world eater 8 strong (inc AC) gets 33 attacks on the charge. which isn't enough to kill the unit but it certainly cuts out their main advantage of laaying down a hail of fire (not to mention the fact that a power weapon armed characters can do some serious damage).
 

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Is there anything particularly -wrong- with this approach? It was the one I was planning on doing, especially considering I do -not- find the Thousand Son models attractive. I realize that if you are MoT, you are Thousand Sons. I also like the flexibility of being able to bring some odd things to the mix.
By all means, no! Go ahead and do an "impure" thousand sons army. Often, the play styles between that and a pure thousand sons army vary drastically and it may even be more of a challenge. It really just depends on what kind of army floats your boat, and if that's the one, go for it.

The Flamers are mentioned by Lord of Change, but I think they are better then he gives them credit for. The Horrors on the other hand are quite bad against MEQs anyway, but the Flamers are devastating.
Oh, i didn't mean to belittle the flamers - they're devastating indeed. But the way i see them, they're better in the style of a "heavy weapon trooper" amongst the horrors than an entire squad. But it could work differently, i will admit that i've never tried it another way.

having played AGAINST thousand sons many times I would say they have lot of potential however I actually think there greatest weakness is there deamons. Considering there cost they simply don't do enough damage and are too vulnerable to close assault attacks. Especially compared to other Chaos powers the deamons of Tzeentch are quite dissapointing
But they're also the only daemons with two wounds. And i assume by "the other chaos powers" you mean bloodletters, as does everyone. Bloodletters are also 26 points, and are vulnerable to gunfire, whereas a decent size horror squad will take A LOT of damage. For the 17 points you pay for one horror, you get what you pay for. And if you don't like them, don't take them.

I also found that playing against them as Deamon hunters was remarkable easy.
And you wouldn't think that daemon hunters would have an easy time against daemons would you?! I mean...it's as if daemon hunters were designed to kill daemons!

Of course a good hand to hand unit can cut through Thousand sons quite quickly (world eater 8 strong (inc AC) gets 33 attacks on the charge. which isn't enough to kill the unit but it certainly cuts out their main advantage of laaying down a hail of fire (not to mention the fact that a power weapon armed characters can do some serious damage).
I gotta say, you have a real talent for stating the obvious. The fact is, a good strong hand to hand unit or a character with a power weapon can cut through nearly any space marine unit. And as for your example of berserkers and a decent AC - erm...well, they're kinda designed for combat - it's the point of khorne - so it's natural that they're good in combat. So that is really a moot point. And as for cutting out their main advantage of shooting - same with devastators, same with havocs, same with any type of unit. If someone is in combat, they can't shoot. You've done little more than tell us something we already know.

LoC
 
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