[northoceanbeach]

Hi, I realize you are not allowed to post rules, not even a small snippet and I think that is counterproductive.

I know it's not this sites fault, because GW forces them into it, but why? I mean, if I scan and print out a codex, yeah, I can see them not wanting me to do that, but it is frustrating to me that they have to try and get money out of me(or you) for everything.

Take for example Chapter Approved. I don't get why you have to buy this. If I buy an army and their codex, and the rulebook, and they add something or change something, why not just post it in a download section of their website. You shouldn't have to spend like 30 bucks, just to stay current.

And my first point was really not posting stuff in forums. I think examples help to get my point across so let's try this. Say I am thinking about starting a Slaanesh army. Now I live in Hawaii, and there are no stores on this island where I can go and easily buy, or page through to see if this is the army for me. GW actually expects me to buy a codex for every army I am thinking about getting. That's no way to narrow it down, and I am not going to buy an army I don't know anything about. So why not let people ask on forums about the rules for this army.

Or say I want to order Ahriman's Chosen. They are in White Dwarf. I'm not going to order them without knowing their rules, but you aren't allowed to tell me. And I am actually expected to track down some old white Dwarf to get them? That's crazy.

And lastly, say I have a game against a Necron player this weekend, and I know he's going to use Pariahs. I don't know their rules(I do, that's not the point) so why not be able to ask someone here, so I can prepare to fight my buddy there. But no, you are almost expected to own every single codex to stay competitive.

Why not just be able to ask for the stats for a squad you are thinking about getting. That only helps the game and GW.

How are kids supposed to get into this game anymore. I remember 14 years ago I went to England and bought a bunch of stuff and it was about 2 dollars(converted) for a blister of 3 metal stricking scorpions or something like that. I think I got a Rhino for like 10 dollars. It's like 3 to 5 times, that, and inflation hasn't gone up that much.

 

[LordLink]

I completely agree with you. I just posted about how stupid it was to have to find a 2 year old white dwarf to for about 2 lines of information on chaos psyker powers. I'll accept not posting rules on the forums but having bloody useless FAQ's so you have to buy supplementary books is stupid.:angry:

My solution to this is to simply go down to games workshop and read all their store copies one by one without buying them. I still own the books relevant to my armies though. That's just polite.

I see however that you have a problem dropping in to a local games workshop.:hmm:

An average eldar army that i wanted to collect was about $600 and that was biel-tann with small amount of models. I'd hate to think how much orks or tyranids cost. Especially those metal gretchin.

 

[Kahoolin]

Take for example Chapter Approved. I don't get why you have to buy this. If I buy an army and their codex, and the rulebook, and they add something or change something, why not just post it in a download section of their website. You shouldn't have to spend like 30 bucks, just to stay current.

I agree with you on this point. If something needs to be updated or there is an addition to a codex it should be offered free on their website. Especially when you CAN'T BUY the chapter approved you need anymore. I had to get a guy at my club to give me a copy of the most recent vehicle design rules because GW no longer prints CA2004. I tried to buy it, I really did.

I think every Chapter Approved article should be posted instantly on their website as soon as it appears in WD.

As to to the rest of your post though, all I can say is tough luck that you live in Hawaii I guess I have the same problem in Australia, though not so bad. At least I can get to a store, even if only some of their range is available and I pay way more than anywhere else in the world. It's just a fact of life that if you live in the UK or the (mainland) US there is just a much larger player base.

 

[Tzeentch Lord]

As I'm sure you already know, we can't blatantly post rules, points values or stats because such things are the intellectual property and therefore the copyright of GW (or whoever). Because of that, they alone have the right to make copies of their rules, we can't.

While it would seem sensible to allow stuff like white dwarf rules to be posted to allow easy access for players who can't get hold of those WDs, the fact still remains that if GW got wind of things like that going on here at LO, the LO staff would be in serious trouble. Since they can't constantly vet and approve every single post that is made here, it's more logical for them to place a blanket ban on rules posting.
To be honest, I don't blame them.

About the only thing that you can get away with is posting abridged versions of the rules in your own words for the purpose of clarifying a rule to other players (such as in the Rules Help sub-forums). However, even this is playing with fire, since sometimes, in order to make a rule crystal clear, you have to post pretty much all of the actual rule in the way it was written.

Because GW don't publish all of their old rules, updates and rules clarifications on their website, unless GW give their consent to give out rules and stats (which they won't do), there isn't really any way rules can be posted. That's just the way it is unfortunately.

 

[Cheredanine]

You are not allowed to post rules because of the laws on IPR and copyright which would allow the nice people to sue not only you but this site and the people that run it.

40 is not a freebie, it is created by GW to make money, that is why you need to buy CA and other stuff, they make it that way deliberatley.

This has been done before, please search before starting repeat threads

 

[Deltaguard1894]

its not illegal, its an in terroram scare tactic by GW. All you have to do is quote it appropriately and they cant do anything to the site or to you. The fanboys are afraid of GW and as such, they fall in line accordingly. It isnt illegal, and those that say it is are incorrect, factually and legally.

 

[impending slaughter]

its not illegal, its an in terroram scare tactic by GW. All you have to do is quote it appropriately and they cant do anything to the site or to you. The fanboys are afraid of GW and as such, they fall in line accordingly. It isnt illegal, and those that say it is are incorrect, factually and legally.

That wont stop them sueing you. Anyone who knows anything about law knows that 9 times out of 10 the guy with the most money wins. In this case GW. Conclusion - dont break IP

 

[Deltaguard1894]

you go ahead and believe that. I am a law student. I am telling you that they would have no standing, short of you posting the CODEX in its entirety or LARGE portions of the codex, online and taking credit for it. You CAN post stats, names, weapon lists, as long as you appropriately CITE the thing. they can try to sue them, and you can ask for a dismissal due to failure to state a claim.

the guy with the most money does not always win. Especially when it is an english company in american court. Their incorporation is state could threaten, but they cant do anything to you for posting stats in a post/comment; you just cant use the whole thing at one time, in any way that would allow you to be unjustly enriched ((IE profit) from it. people sharing information happens all the time, people threaten, but dont do **** about it. Stop being afraid of those l**s (bleeped for the sake of british - US diplomacy) .

 

[impending slaughter]

you go ahead and believe that. I am a law student. I am telling you that they would have no standing, short of you posting the CODEX in its entirety or LARGE portions of the codex, online and taking credit for it. You CAN post stats, names, weapon lists, as long as you appropriately CITE the thing. they can try to sue them, and you can ask for a dismissal due to failure to state a claim.

But thats just the problem if those laws werent there people would post codex etc *shrugs* The forum rules are there to stop people stepping over the line

the guy with the most money does not always win. Especially when it is an english company in american court. Their incorporation is state could threaten, but they cant do anything to you for posting stats in a post/comment; you just cant use the whole thing at one time, in any way that would allow you to be unjustly enriched ((IE profit) from it. people sharing information happens all the time, people threaten, but dont do **** about it. Stop being afraid of those limeys.

I don't know american law so I can't comment. The whole ''american court'' argument you've got wouldn't help me anyway, I'm not american >_<

 

[northoceanbeach]

Good, replies, I guess the worst part of all is the lack of some comeraderie.

We all play this game so we share a common interest. I am not by this post trying to change or blaming the forum's rules. But it is frusterating when a new person asks for rules, instead of someone explaining to them politely, sorry, we can't give you rules here, and why, there are a couple people that are pissed at them and angrily or sarcastically chastise them for their post.

How about just being nice to the guy, you actually sound like a GW lawyer.

 

[Deltaguard1894]

GW lawyer

North ocean beach.

I'll say one thing, I love warhammer. It has kept me of clean mind in my formative years, gave me a chance to exercise an artistic talent, and make good friends whom I am close to (everytime i am in my hometown I go to my old haunt, the gameshop, and play a game). GW has a great game and for many years it was not too pricey, well made, rules were manageable and the game catered to all users, new and old. GW nowadays, between their baseless threats onto 3rd party distributers over online business (an illegal restraint of trade as per the VA supreme court in several employment, franchise and labor law cases) and their supposed ban on posting stats is just what i said before, an in terroram attack onto consumers to scare them into line and away from sharing tidbits of information with each other. It is morally reprehensible conduct on their part.

I am not advocating the illegal piracy of literary texts trademarked and copyrighted to the GW company, I am talking about forum talk, helping a new guy, or someone who needs to know that a plasma gun for the IG overheats on a 1, etc. I believe that the sharing of small tidbits of information is not amoral and legally it is not afoul of any annotated statute, law, case, or intellectual property rule. It is simply and utterly a scare tactic perpetrated onto the customer base by a company that, In my opinion, cares less for its established clientel than the new kids willing to spend the money on the gimmicky space marines and LOTR.

I advocate that the forum should allow minimal posting of stats, one question, one answer.

Example:

Jimmy: I need to know the strength of the Imperial guard lasgun, just started IG.
Mod/caring patron: well jimmy, that would be 3 Str and - AP. I suggest getting the codex so that you may be more knowledgeable about your chosen army. Have a nice day.

This is not illegal, its conscientious and decent, and I say again, violates NO laws.

Now, if an individual decides to post the entire army list in the Tyranid book, complete with armory attached an annotated, It is not illegal, but running very close to illegal as you are reprinting a substantial portion of copyrighted material without permission from the parent company. That is the key word: SUBSTANTIAL PORTION

I think that we at LO, as both new and veteran players alike, should be willing to help each other out in a pinch. We shouldnt be nasty to one another because someone can't afford the codex right now, doesnt have it handy at the store, etc. w/e.

remember, just because its a costly hobby, that doesnt mean taht we shouldnt provide the minimal resources and assistance to those of us less fortunate in a pinch, or in a reasonable, non- piratical fashion.

PS: Perhaps what we should do, since the mods act like little schmucks about this is simply tell the person to PM you, and answer their question. Person to person trading is DEFINITELY not illegal if transferred on an individual basis.

 

[impending slaughter]

This is not a flame

Serious question Deltaguard:

On your law course do you study international law or just US law?

 

[Deltaguard1894]

impending:

As a legal studies student in the US, we first study the laws of torts (state based private claims), contracts (which includes the CISG, an international convention on trade, sales, buying, and legal rules for international dispute resolution), Property law (this has its roots in the English system of property), criminal law (US), Constitutional Law (US), and Civil procedure.

After these first courses, you are free to take other elective courses, of which business law and international trade law can be options.

The BAR association, which is the governing body over american lawyers and jurists, mandates that certain courses should be stressed as they will be testable material when you take the BAR exam after graduation to obtain licensure to practice.

So to answer your question to the best of my knowledge, no, it is not required to take a stand alone course on international business law, BUT many couses cover aspects of international law, conventions, treaties, and acts that affect areas such as intellectual property, trademark usage, copyrights, sales and trade, etc.

Further, the law of copyrights, trademarks, and intellectual property is not a state based form of law, but a federal jurisdiction; which is why all intellectual P, copyright, trademark, etc. are arbitrated and mediated in the Federal Court, specifically the 13th district; located in Balmy Washington, DC.

Also, a Foreign corporation MAY bring a claim against someone (IE GW v. a mad downloader who posts ALL the codex) in the Federal court, but because they are also incorporated in the United States in Glenn Burnie, MD (not too far from me), they can bring state claims, as well as federal claims should they so desire.

The problem with that idea (and why I say it is a fear tactic) is because in order for a business to "sue" you, they have to have a cause of action (They have to show that a detriment came to them) due to your unsavory conduct. Additionally that conduct must be a prohibited conduct, and GW would have to show damages.

While this is a REAL threat for a third party distributor selling online contra their ban on online sales (50K-150K is money to fight over, and a real detriment). They would not be able to prove that they suffered any REAL losses due to some guys on a forum answering or posting stats in a limited fashion. They wouldnt have anything but negligible damages, which would go to small claims court, ($300 or less) and they as a corporation are not going to PAY an attorney to hunt the hapless kid down, serve them with process (IE let them know they are being sued), make a case, file the briefs, go to court, and stand before a judge and ask for a miniscule amount of money.

To further make this unlikely, since the GW corp. only has branch stores in certain states, they can only bring actions against persons in the state which they are incorporated in state court, a person in another state would be a whole different matter, as GW would have to go to federal court (diversity jurisdiction: two ppl from two different states) and they have to show damages of AT LEAST $75K (not counting anything but actual damages sought)

In conclusion, GW can say what they want, but in the end, the amount of money they will pay an attorney (minimum of $250 an hour) will quickly add up to more than the money they would obtain from some 16 year old kid's parents. Lastly, the publicity of such an event would sink their sales, make them out as an ogre of the gaming world and lead to a drop in customer respect, enjoyment, and most of all purchases.

 

[impending slaughter]

In conclusion, GW can say what they want, but in the end, the amount of money they will pay an attorney (minimum of $250 an hour) will quickly add up to more than the money they would obtain from some 16 year old kid's parents. Lastly, the publicity of such an event would sink their sales, make them out as an ogre of the gaming world and lead to a drop in customer respect, enjoyment, and most of all purchases.

1. Making a martyr. GW wouldn't aim to make money put of them they would aim to stop other people doing the same thing *points to download court cases*

2. As a marketing student I know this much; as a monoploy the public won't care about what GW does :/ They have no choice in the matter *points to Nike as an example* (allegded to beat workers - how many people stop buying Nike trainers as a reault? ZERO) OK so Nike are really part of an oligopoly MEH! MEH I say! Nintendo, Sony and Microsoft have all had similar court cases in the past as have a variety of other companies I'm sure. The point is people dont stop buying a companies products because of something that company has done (except in extreme circumstances). *Points at McDonalds* Deforestation? Effect on global sales? Negligable :/

*looks at my post* Anyway this has kinda got off topic now Dont break IP kids! Its morally wrong even if it isnt legally! Would you want it to happen to you?

 

[Deltaguard1894]

I answered the legal question buddy, Im a lawyer in training, not a priest, morals arent my business.

The downloading cases are not as relevant as you believe; those occured bc the person had taken a LOT of stuff. Its also bc RCA and the RIAA has the money to BLOW on that kind of situation, GW doesnt have that kind of capital to blow AND the fact that when you download there is a big red line coming from your comp to the site (hence FILESHARING, it allows tracing of the file) posting something under a forum alias is much harder to catch.


Also, everyone needs shoes, nike has affordable athletic shoes that are sponsored by various athletes. I dont see Shaquille o[neal holdin up his commissar yarrick fig. They have a nitch market, these are easy to scare off.

People need shoes, food, cigarettes, etc. Warhammer is a very expendable expense.

Its not covered in IP.

I guess well have to agree to disagree.

PS. I hate mcdonalds too

 

[Decado]

children

the rules are there to prevent gw from closing this site.

and trust me they will

quoting a rule ver batum is a definate no no.

however even if you change some of the words they can and will claim their copyright has been breached.

and i might add that whilst you are a STUDENT at law the guys that GW will send after LO will be PROPER, FULLY QUALIFIED lawyers.

 

[Deltaguard1894]

im not advocating full postings of stats again. Ill be a Fully Qualified Lawyer soon, no need to condescend... and the only DIFF btwn me and them is who gets paid right now. We all use the same books to research.

one

 

[Kahoolin]

children

the rules are there to prevent gw from closing this site.

and trust me they will

How? The only way they could do that is by bringing a suit, which as Deltaguard has argued wouldn't work, or by intimidation and threats which don't have to be bowed to. They aren't the law.

It's like those signs you see on a McDonald's playground, saying "Play at your own risk, any injury incurred shall not be the responsibility of the McDonald's Corporation." Yes it bloody well shall. Those signs carry no legal weight whatsoever, a corporation (or anyone else) can't change the law by putting up a sign. They are designed to trick people into not sueing if they have an accident. I know this because my grandfather is an ACTUAL PRACTICING lawyer and he told me so. Games Workshop is doing the same thing if they threaten to shut down a site because someone told someone else the strength of a lasgun.

What should be criminal IMO is issuing empty threats like this to gain an advantage. Look how well it's worked on many of us

And while we're on the subject of MacDonalds they are tanking in Australia because people stopped eating there due to environmental and health concerns. Maccas is desperately trying to get it's customers back by becoming a starbucks style cafe and serving salad but it's not working. Just goes to show that no corporation is invincible. If the public percieves them badly it affects them.

All of that said though if the forum rules say no posting rules we should abide by them. I like this place and while I don't beleive GW would shut it down (or have a case to do so) I think we should all obey the rules (whatver they may be) out of respect for our community. It's as simple as that.

LO works fine as it is, I would just like to see GW have the bluster taken out of their threats. That's just a quirk I have, I love seeing bullies go down.

 

[impending slaughter]

And while we're on the subject of MacDonalds they are tanking in Australia because people stopped eating there due to environmental and health concerns. Maccas is desperately trying to get it's customers back by becoming a starbucks style cafe and serving salad but it's not working. Just goes to show that no corporation is invincible. If the public percieves them badly it affects them.

Well I can only talk about the UK. In the UK they're having problems because of competition issues (like Starbucks for instance) not envionmental ones. The average UK consumer doesn't really care. AFAIK they're still going strong in the US too

 

[Deltaguard1894]

actually after several "you made my child fat" lawsuits and an investigation by the FDA (american Food and Drug Inspection Agency) they had thier first negative profit this year.

and ^^ ditto, im glad you see what i mean