Pathfinders Why?
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Pathfinders are really good, and effective. They should ALWAYS be placed in at least woods, a ruins or house is ideal for their cover choise. The reason they are so good is because of the ap1 shot on the roll of 5 or 6. What you send them after is monterous critters, anything with a high armor save, and high valus models. If you use them right, and against the right targets, a squad of 5-7 will always earn back their points. They are great for the tourny scene cause they can take out hugh chunks of units that are a good number more points than them.
Don't take more than 8 they get hard to fit into cover and also get costly. 6-7 will do th job. Use cover, and choose the heavy armored targets and the multi-wounds. They can drop carinfexs and hive tyrants, along with terminators, and more.
Hope this helps.
Don't take more than 8 they get hard to fit into cover and also get costly. 6-7 will do th job. Use cover, and choose the heavy armored targets and the multi-wounds. They can drop carinfexs and hive tyrants, along with terminators, and more.
Hope this helps.
pathfinders
I agree with stormwind that the killing power for high point cost units/special characters is a huge benifet. I always used this ability to anchor my opponents army around an area of the board. The Pathfinders draw tons of attention, especially if your popping terminators, Carnifexes, Demon princes..or what have you. Becuase of the attention they draw lots of fire...fire that is not going into my other units. And with the 2+ cover save (if you place them right) the pathfinders are one of the most durable units in the game. I find that with my Mechanized Eldar they are instramental for anchoring your opponent where you want him/her right off the top of turn one.
For my personal tactics I tend to place them in a staggered foward board, mid board position for slower armies. Because they cant often catch my vehicles they follow the pathfinders up the chain and gives me a place to concentrate my fire. If the pathfinder are in a real bad position a fleeting Eldar that ignores difficult terrain is hard to catch. For faster armies I tend to put them on opposite sides of the board to try and divide the oncoming army, then concentrate on one side at a time. Of course this all depends on the situation on the board.
I agree with stormwind that the killing power for high point cost units/special characters is a huge benifet. I always used this ability to anchor my opponents army around an area of the board. The Pathfinders draw tons of attention, especially if your popping terminators, Carnifexes, Demon princes..or what have you. Becuase of the attention they draw lots of fire...fire that is not going into my other units. And with the 2+ cover save (if you place them right) the pathfinders are one of the most durable units in the game. I find that with my Mechanized Eldar they are instramental for anchoring your opponent where you want him/her right off the top of turn one.
For my personal tactics I tend to place them in a staggered foward board, mid board position for slower armies. Because they cant often catch my vehicles they follow the pathfinders up the chain and gives me a place to concentrate my fire. If the pathfinder are in a real bad position a fleeting Eldar that ignores difficult terrain is hard to catch. For faster armies I tend to put them on opposite sides of the board to try and divide the oncoming army, then concentrate on one side at a time. Of course this all depends on the situation on the board.
One thing that took me a while to get the hang of, but now use pretty well with Pathfinders is concentrated fire. They do a really nice job of softening up a squad for other Eldar units to the finish off.
Try shooting at a large squad of necrons or space marines with your pathfinders, then your tank (falcon or wave serpent), and then your dire avengers. If there's anything left, then you have a prett good shot of wiping out the squad in close combat.
Another fun tactic I use is to pelt a squad with reaper and pathfinder shots. Both have excellent range. Put them on opposite ends of your deployment zone and then fire away into the middle.
It's a good strategy for take and hold missions.
Try shooting at a large squad of necrons or space marines with your pathfinders, then your tank (falcon or wave serpent), and then your dire avengers. If there's anything left, then you have a prett good shot of wiping out the squad in close combat.
Another fun tactic I use is to pelt a squad with reaper and pathfinder shots. Both have excellent range. Put them on opposite ends of your deployment zone and then fire away into the middle.
It's a good strategy for take and hold missions.
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Pathfinders make an excellent addition to an army simply because of their versatility. They can deal with High T creatures such as TMC's, WL's, Daemons etc, drop bikes and terminators with relative ease, pin Low Ld enemy squads and stand firm under fire with relative impunity.
They infiltrate, ignore difficult terrain and are a huge psychological blow for your oponent, especially if they know how effective they can be. They will either try and avoid that area of board or throw everything at them in the often vain hope of beating a 2+ or 3+ cover save.
They infiltrate, ignore difficult terrain and are a huge psychological blow for your oponent, especially if they know how effective they can be. They will either try and avoid that area of board or throw everything at them in the often vain hope of beating a 2+ or 3+ cover save.
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I disagree! (not much of a surprise), pathfinders are a poor choice, they can opperate reasonably well against certain opponents, notably mosterous creatures, terminators, that sort of thing, if your opponent loads up on them then great, however mostly my opponents load up on troops because they know what they are doing (I know it is a generalisation but the use if expensive super stuff to excess is far more common to younger players, far better results are achieved by those that know how to use troops)
Pathfinders against troops is poor, they dont kill MEQs fast enough to recover their points , against lighter infantry such as guard, the situation gets worse
Again there is an arguement that they draw fire or lure your opponent, but to be honest a competent opponent, know they are inefficient will ignore them for more juicy targets
Hence yes ok if you face nidzilla or deathwing, fine, but since you cant guarentee your opponent will field appropriate targets for you, I prefer to spend the points on something more ubiquitous.
If you must take them then yes, as above, deploy them in to cover, always take the pathfinder upgrade etc
Pathfinders against troops is poor, they dont kill MEQs fast enough to recover their points , against lighter infantry such as guard, the situation gets worse
Again there is an arguement that they draw fire or lure your opponent, but to be honest a competent opponent, know they are inefficient will ignore them for more juicy targets
Hence yes ok if you face nidzilla or deathwing, fine, but since you cant guarentee your opponent will field appropriate targets for you, I prefer to spend the points on something more ubiquitous.
If you must take them then yes, as above, deploy them in to cover, always take the pathfinder upgrade etc
I agree with Cheredanine. I have used pathfinders to very little success. They have been fabulous at survivng until turn 6 at which point my opponent just surrounds them, uses flame templates (say goodbye to those wonderful 2+ saves), and then charges them (again, no 2+) if they aren't all crispy by then. The whole game they took out maybe 3 marines because not many opponents will just hand you their big expensive units.
On the other hand, they are fun to use sometimes and the models are great! My advice is buy the 6 different models if you like the look of them, and then use them a couple of times to see how well they do for you. Absolutely nothing wrong with painting up a few good looking models to show off.
On the other hand, they are fun to use sometimes and the models are great! My advice is buy the 6 different models if you like the look of them, and then use them a couple of times to see how well they do for you. Absolutely nothing wrong with painting up a few good looking models to show off.
A big mistake I made with my pathfinders, for a very long time too, was infiltrating them too close to the enemy lines.
I now use infiltrate just to place them last, right into a straight firing line of the best enemy unit I can find.
That really upgraded their use.
But to each his own.
I now use infiltrate just to place them last, right into a straight firing line of the best enemy unit I can find.
That really upgraded their use.
But to each his own.
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163 Posts
As posted by other users, the Pathfinders cannont do well against some things, but good against others. Thats is the whole point of the eldar army. Some people find them useful, some don't. I personally think they do very well on the tourny scene, as in most cases they will normally find the right opponet to shoot at there. Don't take them and shoot them into squads of orks or guards, unless they have already dispatched of their proper opponets. Try them out, just use them wisely, as you should everything.
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116 Posts
I think the use of pathfinders depends greatly on the meta-game in which you play. At the store I go to, for example, I find I face lists with many high points cost, elite troops. I have found good use for pathfinders fighting Chaos,Nidzilla, Tau, Necrons, and Marines. I almost never leave for battle without at least 16 pathfinders when fighting these forces. If I am fighting other Eldar, I bring 7, to kill Wraith-stuff, and fighting horde lists, I never take more then 5. So, really, pathfinders is a mixed bag, but I would rather take 20 Pathfinders in 1500 pts then none, but thats just me.
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1,331 Posts
Agreed upon here but I wouldn't be too hasty as to disregard them completely from a regular list (I know you prefer speed and mobility). They have their own strengths which in a balanced army can prove very handy. If you have enough other units that can cope with the anti-infantry demand, having a small squad to target some of the more elite squads has merit. Lets be fair, competant opponent or not, you'll definately meet an elite squad or two, either for fluff or as a final death blow. Speaking of competant players.....never use of your squads as a lure, for reasons stated above and it's honestly a waste of resources, you could spend those points on something more useful.
Also, they are also the cheaper troops choices (cheaper than the conventional Defender Gaurdians and Dire Avengers...though not by a huge margin when using pathfinders in comparison to rangers), which has merit in that you'll be able to put that bit of points into something else.
Their infiltration ability also gives you a chance to counter opposing infiltration by blocking areas you don't want them to deploy, then scout back into cover before the game begins. They also move faster than most through terrain, so they can contest an objective before the game ends or redeploy from closing squads. Their most obvious ability would be the chance to pin a squad, which can be far more deadly than actually killing. It could mean you can happily expose your softer squads safely for a turn or bring out a warwalker from hiding for some shooting.
So summary to my rant, agree with Cher but there are uses beyond sitting still and shooting, and depending on your current army list setup I would recommend consider adding some if they suit your list. Don't disregard them completely, even for competetive lists. 8Y
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One other factor to bear in mind is that of range. Love em or hate em Rangers and Pathfinders are the only Troop choice capable of projecting effective firepower out to the range they do, because no way are 10 guardians with a heavy support weapon weighing in properly.
Now this means nothing if your a bike fanatic, melee aspect warrior fan or mech enthusiast, you don't need the range on your troops.
However if your planning on putting together a static style 36"+ range firepower army then they can be a handy way of making your troop choices work for you without having 85% of your squad sitting around checking their hair and waiting around to catch bullets for the gunner, or worse, putting together the cheapest 2 troop choices you can and pretty much ignoring them.
They shine for a specific kind of army, one that specialises in keeping the enemy at arms length, outside of that you'll likely get more milage out of the bike/bladestorming Avengers combos.
Now this means nothing if your a bike fanatic, melee aspect warrior fan or mech enthusiast, you don't need the range on your troops.
However if your planning on putting together a static style 36"+ range firepower army then they can be a handy way of making your troop choices work for you without having 85% of your squad sitting around checking their hair and waiting around to catch bullets for the gunner, or worse, putting together the cheapest 2 troop choices you can and pretty much ignoring them.
They shine for a specific kind of army, one that specialises in keeping the enemy at arms length, outside of that you'll likely get more milage out of the bike/bladestorming Avengers combos.
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a squad of 10 is pretty damn good, a small squad of 5-6 isn't ok i guess but i'd go bigger squads judging from previous experience of a 6 man squad not doing particulary well, and a 10 man squad owning
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I personally prefer pathfinders over dire avengers in just about every situation:
-Against armies with heavy troops they can really cause major havoc on them taking out expensive models.
-Against most swarm armies they will cause pinning due to low leadership values. The exception here is with nids, but the pathfinders work well to take out monstrous creatures.
That just leaves the MEQ armies, traditionally the Dire Avengers are thought to be better against MEQs, but I find that the pathfinders ability to shoot every round and their longevity really makes them a better choice.
Most Dire Avengers squads will get 2-3 turns of shooting before either being wiped out or no longer having any valid targets.
-Foot Slogging DA will loost the first round, then if they are lucky get rounds 2-3 to really shoot up the enemy, round 4 they will shoot with diminished numbers, then by round 5 they are either wiped out or can’t reach anymore enemy units.
-Serpent Mounted Avengers (usually bladestorming) will zoom up and drop out of the transport and bladestorm in round 1, round 2 they can’t shoot, round 3 they bladestorm again round 4 they can’t shoot and by then their transport is either destroyed with them in it or they have been shot to pieces.
With the foot sloggers assuming a squad of 9 DAs + 1 Exarch w/ 2 shuriken cats, 2 full rounds of shooting and 1 round of 50% strength shooting you end up with 6.67 MEQ kills for 137 points spent on the squad.
With the Serpent Bladestormers assuming a squad of 9 DAs + 1 Exarch w/ 2 shuriken cats & bladestorm, 2 full rounds of bladestorming you end up with 7.39 MEQ kills for 152 points spent on the squad (I am not figuring in the cost of the transport since it is a decent tank in its own right).
With the Serpent Bladestormers and adding in a Farseer with Doom, guide, & a spirit stone assuming a squad of 9 DAs + 1 Exarch w/ 2 shuriken cats & bladestorm + farseer, 2 full rounds of bladestorming you end up with 14.43 MEQ kills for 272 points spent on the squad (I am not figuring in the cost of the transport since it is a decent tank in its own right).
With Pathfinders you can usually get them behind 4+ cover (which becomes 2+ for them) they have good range so that they can usually shoot every round, and they should last nearly the whole game due to their cover save. So I am assuming that rounds 1-2 they get their full shots then loosing 1 model per round after that.
As equivalent point costs a squad of 6 Pathfinders is 144 points which is close enough to both the first two configurations of DAs for comparison.
Round 1: 1.75 MEQ Kills
Round 2: 1.75 MEQ Kills
Round 3: 1.46 MEQ Kills
Round 4: 1.17 MEQ Kills
Round 5: 0.88 MEQ Kills
Round 6: 0.58 MEQ Kills
For a total of 7.59 MEQ Kills which beats out both squads of DAs at similar point levels.
For the farseer version at you can get 11 pathfinders for 264 points assuming the same kill ratio as the previous example you get:
Round 1: 2.90 MEQ Kills
Round 2: 2.90 MEQ Kills
Round 3: 2.61 MEQ Kills
Round 4: 2.32 MEQ Kills
Round 5: 2.03 MEQ Kills
Round 6: 1.74 MEQ Kills
For a total of 14.50 MEQ Kills Which is just above that of the Dire Avengers with the Farseer.
In both cases the numbers come out to be about the same, and yes if the Dire Avengers get to shoot every round with their full attacks they will out perform the Pathfinders every time, but at least in my experience Dire Avengers just don’t last that long. They either get charged, their transport gets blown up and they get entangled then shot up, or they get shot to death and wiped out before they can really be fully effective.
Pathfinders on the other hand are much more reliable, have more staying power, and the versatility of them being able to take out heavy infantry, pin light infantry, and kill about the equivalent of MEQs make them very worth while.
-Against armies with heavy troops they can really cause major havoc on them taking out expensive models.
-Against most swarm armies they will cause pinning due to low leadership values. The exception here is with nids, but the pathfinders work well to take out monstrous creatures.
That just leaves the MEQ armies, traditionally the Dire Avengers are thought to be better against MEQs, but I find that the pathfinders ability to shoot every round and their longevity really makes them a better choice.
Most Dire Avengers squads will get 2-3 turns of shooting before either being wiped out or no longer having any valid targets.
-Foot Slogging DA will loost the first round, then if they are lucky get rounds 2-3 to really shoot up the enemy, round 4 they will shoot with diminished numbers, then by round 5 they are either wiped out or can’t reach anymore enemy units.
-Serpent Mounted Avengers (usually bladestorming) will zoom up and drop out of the transport and bladestorm in round 1, round 2 they can’t shoot, round 3 they bladestorm again round 4 they can’t shoot and by then their transport is either destroyed with them in it or they have been shot to pieces.
With the foot sloggers assuming a squad of 9 DAs + 1 Exarch w/ 2 shuriken cats, 2 full rounds of shooting and 1 round of 50% strength shooting you end up with 6.67 MEQ kills for 137 points spent on the squad.
With the Serpent Bladestormers assuming a squad of 9 DAs + 1 Exarch w/ 2 shuriken cats & bladestorm, 2 full rounds of bladestorming you end up with 7.39 MEQ kills for 152 points spent on the squad (I am not figuring in the cost of the transport since it is a decent tank in its own right).
With the Serpent Bladestormers and adding in a Farseer with Doom, guide, & a spirit stone assuming a squad of 9 DAs + 1 Exarch w/ 2 shuriken cats & bladestorm + farseer, 2 full rounds of bladestorming you end up with 14.43 MEQ kills for 272 points spent on the squad (I am not figuring in the cost of the transport since it is a decent tank in its own right).
With Pathfinders you can usually get them behind 4+ cover (which becomes 2+ for them) they have good range so that they can usually shoot every round, and they should last nearly the whole game due to their cover save. So I am assuming that rounds 1-2 they get their full shots then loosing 1 model per round after that.
As equivalent point costs a squad of 6 Pathfinders is 144 points which is close enough to both the first two configurations of DAs for comparison.
Round 1: 1.75 MEQ Kills
Round 2: 1.75 MEQ Kills
Round 3: 1.46 MEQ Kills
Round 4: 1.17 MEQ Kills
Round 5: 0.88 MEQ Kills
Round 6: 0.58 MEQ Kills
For a total of 7.59 MEQ Kills which beats out both squads of DAs at similar point levels.
For the farseer version at you can get 11 pathfinders for 264 points assuming the same kill ratio as the previous example you get:
Round 1: 2.90 MEQ Kills
Round 2: 2.90 MEQ Kills
Round 3: 2.61 MEQ Kills
Round 4: 2.32 MEQ Kills
Round 5: 2.03 MEQ Kills
Round 6: 1.74 MEQ Kills
For a total of 14.50 MEQ Kills Which is just above that of the Dire Avengers with the Farseer.
In both cases the numbers come out to be about the same, and yes if the Dire Avengers get to shoot every round with their full attacks they will out perform the Pathfinders every time, but at least in my experience Dire Avengers just don’t last that long. They either get charged, their transport gets blown up and they get entangled then shot up, or they get shot to death and wiped out before they can really be fully effective.
Pathfinders on the other hand are much more reliable, have more staying power, and the versatility of them being able to take out heavy infantry, pin light infantry, and kill about the equivalent of MEQs make them very worth while.
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139 Posts
i have playeed with the pathfinders for a couple of years and have to say they have both good points and bad points, most of which had already been stated, they are great at pinnng down groups of infantry and at keeping larger beasts at bay, however without cover they are quite vulnerable, and if they fail to pin a unti then they havnt really done much damage other than annoy the enemy
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18 Posts
I never really used rangers, as they were known before. Now that I have started playing again I will tell you that I love the pathfinder upgrade. Especially if you can get them in a building giving them +x cover save, they hit on x+ and are apx with a x.
I played against a space wolves army that had 2 5 man teminator squad that slowwly came twoards me. I had 2 5 man squads of pathfinders and I smoked them all before they got across the table.( Just one example, they dont get that lucky all the time)
So as you can see everyonehas their own opinions, you just have to decide if you like they feel of playing them and you have to use them correctly to get your points back for them.Hope some of this helps.
I played against a space wolves army that had 2 5 man teminator squad that slowwly came twoards me. I had 2 5 man squads of pathfinders and I smoked them all before they got across the table.( Just one example, they dont get that lucky all the time)
So as you can see everyonehas their own opinions, you just have to decide if you like they feel of playing them and you have to use them correctly to get your points back for them.Hope some of this helps.
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177 Posts
okay, i was reading this and was a bit disappointed. now every player has their opinion on different things, thankfully, because this makes the game as massively versatile as it is. I for one am an avid supporter of swooping hawks and not a supporter of banshees (it's just how I am). when reading this thread, I saw a paltry 1 person bring up pinning. this is perhaps the most underrated ability in the game. pathfinders are great at destroying low number high armour squads. but their true power lies in an ability to stop an enemy unit in its tracks while you postion the unit you want to kill it. now this won't work against nids, but then you shoot synapse so it doesn't matter. for full effect this unit's target should perhaps be doomed (who doesn't take a farseer). just my thoughts.
Let's see, the upgrade to Pathfinder is x pts a model, for which you get:
double the number of APx
another +x to your cover save
Scouts special rule
So, if you're thinking of putting in snipers, makin them Pathfinders is a no brainer - do it!
Now, as for how to play them - they need to stand still to fire, so put them in the best cover, in a place you can protect them from assault. The field of fire is your next consideration.
They infiltrate, so you can place them to take out the enemy's monstrous creatures and heavily armored tropps, such as terminators.
double the number of APx
another +x to your cover save
Scouts special rule
So, if you're thinking of putting in snipers, makin them Pathfinders is a no brainer - do it!
Now, as for how to play them - they need to stand still to fire, so put them in the best cover, in a place you can protect them from assault. The field of fire is your next consideration.
They infiltrate, so you can place them to take out the enemy's monstrous creatures and heavily armored tropps, such as terminators.
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131 Posts
I have to say I stand by Pathfinders almost religously lol. I love the little fellas. IO understand with most peoples style of play or use of them doesn't make them that helpful, but in an army that the Pathfindesr fit into and when used correctly (just like any other unit) can be a devestating foe. I always use a squad of 10, and they've worked wonders for me lol. Just go with what works for you .
Cheers,
Scott
.Cheers,
Scott
I really hate it when someone says. Well Unit A is useful against blah, blah, and blah. Where blah equals 2/3rds of the units you can face. Yes, if you pull your units from the 'paper' to my 'rock' you will beat me. If you have a balanced force vs a balanced force a unit with their range and abilities you should be able to place your pathfinders in a position to kill some 'scisssors'. This is dumbing down WH40k a little too much but oh well.
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