Phase out and FoC

1423 Views 21 Replies 13 Participants Last post by Notasquick, Feb 10, 2006

The_Outsider

Discussion Starter · Feb 7, 2006 (Edited)

This came up recently in another thread and I was wondering, how does Phase out work across multiple force organisation charts?

Is phase out calculated per chart or is it for the entire necron force as a whole?

As each FoC can be considered a seperate army I wondered wheter it would be for total necrons.

1 - 20 of 22 Posts

Tunisia

· #2 · Feb 7, 2006

The codex clearly states that the entire army disappears. This poll is therefore useless and should be closed by the first mod to read it. I shall be more than a little bit peeved if anybody votes for unit by unit.

Blimey, you're going to be asking whether it affects non-necrons next...

nichodemus10

· #3 · Feb 7, 2006

Tunisia said:
The codex clearly states that the entire army disappears. This poll is therefore useless and should be closed by the first mod to read it. I shall be more than a little bit peeved if anybody votes for unit by unit.

Blimey, you're going to be asking whether it affects non-necrons next...

Though you are right and it affects the whole army I think you might not be open your mind up and think less concretely. It seems like you think he is phasing out unit by unit, and will soon start phaseing out non-necron units...He is wondering if you have two force organization charts are they one army or two, and they are in fact one army so it is all or nothing.

LordCreampuff

· #4 · Feb 7, 2006

I voted for unit-by-unit just to peev Tunisia.

Oplopanax

· #5 · Feb 7, 2006

I also voted for each FoC, but not to peeve anyone. It only makes sense, really, as they are essentially 2 separate armies. For instance, you can have 2 units of Flayed Ones by using 2 FoC's, rather than one with just one army list. I don't agree that they are one army, to me they are two. So I would say phase out applies to one army at a time. Having said that, should one army phase out, things are going to look very bad for the remaining Necron army...

Bob Dole

· #6 · Feb 7, 2006

I don't play Necrons, but a couple of my friends do. As such, we've had this issue come up more than once. We've always decided that it makes the most sense to have the armies phase out FoC by FoC. Think of it this way; if you were playing with a Necron FoC and a Tyranid FoC on the same side... the Necron half would phase out independant of whatever happened to the Tyranids. Combining the two gives them some significant advantages, as would allowing one FoC's Res Orb (for instance) to work for both FoC's. Unless both sides are sharing similar advantages (I can't think of anything except Space Marine commanders giving a leadership bonus... which isn't anywhere near as useful) it's an (unfair) advantage to the Necron player(s).

MobiusPrime

· #7 · Feb 7, 2006 (Edited)

I'd say each FOC only if you, as the Necron player, are willing to deal with:

- Keeping track of what units belong to each FOC which would cause a phase out for that FOC.
- How many Necron models need to be destroyed per FOC for phase out.
- Necron from FOC X cannot use Necrons from FOC Y for WWB ranges, and visa versa.
- Necrons from FOC X cannot use Res Orbs or Monoliths from FOC Y to augment WWB abilities, and visa versa.
- Necrons from FOC X cannot use a Veil of Darkness or Monolith from FOC Y to teleport and visa versa.
- If either FOC is phased out, then the Necron player would instantly lose the game, even if s/he has the ability to win/draw with the units remaining from the other FOC as the rules of phase out state that the Necron player instantly loses.

Otherwise, just use the whole 'Necron Force' phase out number, and have abilities lap over between FOCs.

Laplace

· #8 · Feb 7, 2006

Tunisia said:
The codex clearly states that the entire army disappears. This poll is therefore useless and should be closed by the first mod to read it. I shall be more than a little bit peeved if anybody votes for unit by unit.

Blimey, you're going to be asking whether it affects non-necrons next...

No joke, read the Codex.

It clearly states that when Phase Out occurs, EVERYTHING on the Necron's side vanishes.

Also means no matter what, the Necron player loses. Who cares if the other guy never accomplished a single objective. Automatic FULL victory for opponent.

I would guess it even happens if there is a simultaneous swing on turn 6 for the other guy and he has no troops left (and no extra turns played). You are still phased out and lose.

LordCreampuff

· #9 · Feb 7, 2006

Laplace said:
No joke, read the Codex.

It clearly states that when Phase Out occurs, EVERYTHING on the Necron's side vanishes.

Also means no matter what, the Necron player loses. Who cares if the other guy never accomplished a single objective. Automatic FULL victory for opponent.

I would guess it even happens if there is a simultaneous swing on turn 6 for the other guy and he has no troops left (and no extra turns played). You are still phased out and lose.

OK, all kidding aside (as people seem to be getting serious about this topic). It is not only more realistic to have the entire army phase-out it is how the rules were written (thanks for the refs Tunisia). In reality, if someone is going to pull out of a fight all of their armed forces will withdraw. It's not like the Army will pull-out and leave the Marines stranded.

Necrons are phasing-out to save their numbers. The goal of phase-out is a complete retreat from a losing situation. If you phase-out one FoC you are putting the remaining FoC in an even more precarious position.

I would total the entire army (all FoCs) to calculate the total phase-out number and phase-out the entire army when this has been reached.

Bob Dole

· #10 · Feb 7, 2006

LordCreampuff said:
OK, all kidding aside (as people seem to be getting serious about this topic). It is not only more realistic to have the entire army phase-out it is how the rules were written (thanks for the refs Tunisia). In reality, if someone is going to pull out of a fight all of their armed forces will withdraw. It's not like the Army will pull-out and leave the Marines stranded.

Necrons are phasing-out to save their numbers. The goal of phase-out is a complete retreat from a losing situation. If you phase-out one FoC you are putting the remaining FoC in an even more precarious position.

I would total the entire army (all FoCs) to calculate the total phase-out number and phase-out the entire army when this has been reached.

I'm not picking LordCreampuff out here, just the idea that he (and others) have expressed. This is, of course, a good, simple, and easy approach to the problem. However, now you're getting to field an extra 2 res orbs in your army, have twice as many of a unit for WBB radiuses, etc. You are gaining more advantage from two FoCs than your opponent, as far as I can tell. This is, by definition, unfair.

If I'm missing something here, let me know. It's entirely possible that there isn't any advantage to these things. You are, after all, paying for everything. You simply are removing some limitations. One advantage I can think of for using two FoCs is that your opponent will most likely have to kill an extra necron or two in order to force phase out depending on how the numbers are divisible by four.

Borak

· #11 · Feb 7, 2006

Personally fighting against a SM army with 4(four) yes 4 Chaplains would be a bit nasty, more res orbs the better.

The Paint Monkey

· #12 · Feb 8, 2006

I threw in my 2c by voting 'whole army'. It would just get out of hand if you had warriors (or whatever) WBBing and joing the other FOC (which is a guide line, in my opinion, for balanced armies rather than any particular battlefield unit). You'd also have to ask if wargear from one FOC affected the other and then life would be too difficult.

Oplopanax

· #13 · Feb 8, 2006 (Edited)

The thing is, it doesn't HAVE to be simple, does it? I mean, there is no specific rule that says things have to be simple in this game.

So let's look at it in another context then. Let's say it is Space Marines rather than Necron using 2 FoC. Now, if you were to play identical Marine lists, is there anything saying you can't take a Holy Relic? So really you could have 2 Holy Relics, right? So then you get twice the benefit there. Granted, it is a limited benefit, but technically legal nonetheless. Go one step further, and use only one relic on one of the FoC, does the relic affect the other FoC if they are within the 2d6" once it is revealed? Well there is one heck of a benefit, just walk the relic carrier in with all your HtH troops from both FoC and BAM there is the relic, everyone gets that much more lovin.

Who is to say that because one Necron force leaves that the other won't stick around? Ever heard of a delay? It is a military term where one force stays behind to basically just slow down the enemy so they can't pursue the main force. But then we are just talking about fluff, really, aren't we? And how often is fluff used as a hard and fast rule for any force?

My point is that you are being too literal and worried too much about 4 Res orbs. Every other force has it's own advantages. As my good friend pointed out, the more FoC he has, the more Demon Princes and Obliterator squads he can take. So imagine 2 Necron FoC facing 2 Iron Warriors FoC with 2 DP, 6 Basilisks and a total of 18 Obliterators with less that 2000 pts per FoC and tell me the Necron have some CRAZY advantage.

And please stop quoting rules that don't apply, the phase out rule, along with EVERY other rule in every other codex is written from a stance that you will field ONE list, not two or more FoC. Show me where it specifically states anything about more than one FoC and I will eat my hat. :yes:

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The Paint Monkey

· #14 · Feb 8, 2006

Simple? Try this- army selection must follow a FoC. When one FoC is full a second may be used. We haven't yet started talking about a new army. Don't suggest we are- we're keeping it simple. So... when phase out point is reached the army phases out. No mention of FoC or any other variables- the army phases out. To assume otherwise is another fine example of players generating their own rules in a self beneficial way.

Tunisia

· #15 · Feb 8, 2006

FOCs are not armies. They are what you must fill up to have an army. An army may be made up of any number of FOCs, so long as they all fulfil the minimum requirements.

To quote the codex:

"...when Phase Out occurs, the whole necron army... phases out."

p13 Necron Special Rules: Phase Out

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clucknut

· #16 · Feb 8, 2006

Well i have another FOC? to throw into this mix. Do You have to compleately fill one FOC before useing a second Foc? If Yes then i would say all at once if No then I would say each individual FOC. just my 2c

Oplopanax

· #17 · Feb 9, 2006

Ok, here is the thing:

This is an opinion poll, and I am giving my opinion and explaining it. I still disagree with you on the reasoning, but I can agree to disagree. To me it seems very simple, but then I think I (and those I game with) have a different idea of what an FoC comprises. We tend to treat them like separate armies. And it isn't that I don't understand what you are saying, or am unable to see your side, I just disagree with it for the reasons and examples that I already listed.

And if they are treated as the same army, then phase out would be for the entire list anyways, making it just as hard to achieve. And as they are 2 separate FoC, I still say they can have 2 res orbs each, unless previously agreed by both players to apply the alternative rule to both sides (i.e. one Holy Relic, etc.).

Grey Wolf

· #18 · Feb 9, 2006

My take on this is as such... (as so well put Is just my opinion...)
I'm going to take this a step further, since we are going to be playing a big game in two weeks with 2 necron players and one tau, against 2 imperial guard and one SOB players. We are playing 3000 pts per player, and allowing 2 FOC for each player.
for the Necrons, we are not allowing the Res orbs of one necron player to benifit the other necron player. But we are restricting both necron players to one VOD (one per army) (so a little more restrictive, but with 6000 pts of necrons on the board, it will get nasty... )
Anyway each necron player will have thier own phase out number, so if one player reaches his threashold, (with the combined FOC's) his whole army will phase out, but the other necron player will still be on the table. So.. in summary:
2 players with 2 FOC's...
2 Phase out numbers (one per player)
player hits phase out.. his army phases out.. (both of his/her FOC's)
but the other necron player is still good to go. so i guess my poll will go to yes whole army, but with the rider that other necon players are still in the game.

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LordCreampuff

· #19 · Feb 9, 2006

Tunisia said:
FOCs are not armies. They are what you must fill up to have an army. An army may be made up of any number of FOCs, so long as they all fulfil the minimum requirements.

To quote the codex:

"...when Phase Out occurs, the whole necron army... phases out."

p13 Necron Special Rules: Phase Out

Clear, concise explanation. Rule quote with a page reference. What more is there to argue?

Any further discussion and you're just being stubborn.

Notasquick

· #20 · Feb 10, 2006

Some relevant rule sections are described below:

Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook 4th Edition, Page 78, Choose Forces, Multiple Detachment Games:

"On a large scale, an army will consisit of many such detatchments, each performing separate missions. If you want to play an especially large game then, as well as agreeing a points limit, you should agree a maximum number of detatchments. Each detachment will be a separate army, using its own Force Organisation chart."

Codex: Necron, Page 13, Necron Special Rules, Phase Out:

"However when Phase Out occcurs, the whole Necron army, including models without the Necron ability, phase out."

Some other questions that come to mind:

1. Necron (one player, multiple detachments):

a) Are 'necrons' passed between detachments due to WBB, and does this effect the Phase Out total?
b) Do WBB modifiers (Monolith Portal, Resurrection Orb, Tomb Spyder, Necron Model of Same Type) apply across detachments?

2. Necron (two allied players, one or more detachment per player):

a) Are 'necrons' passed between detachments (and therefore allied players) due to WBB, and does this effect the Phase Out total?
b) Do WBB modifiers (Monolith Portal, Resurrection Orb, Tomb Spyder, Necron Model of Same Type) apply across players?

3. Necron versus Necron:

a) Are 'necrons' passed between detachments (and therefore enemy players) due to WBB, and does this effect the Phase Out total?
b) Do WBB modifiers (Monolith Portal, Resurrection Orb, Tomb Spyder, Necron Model of Same Type) apply to all 'necrons' on the table (regardless of side)?

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