Powerfists DO COUNT against the Monolith

2001 Views 32 Replies 13 Participants Last post by Chaosbrynn, Feb 10, 2006

^Heavy Support^

Discussion Starter · Feb 9, 2006 (Edited)

I find it interesting that everyone came the the conclusion that powerfists and powerclaws did not count, yet in a white dwarf battle report a dreadnought killed a monolith with a powerclaw- str.6(10).

Also, in the 40k FAQ it only says quote "don't count any bonus PENETRATION"- nowhere in the 40k FAQ or in the Necron codex does it say ANYTHING about not counting strength bonuses. Strength bonuses and penetration bonuses are entirely different.

The exception for the Vindicare assassin is because it is a turbo PENETRATOR round, and it is a PENETRATION bonus.

Yes, a powerfist CAN damage a monolith, but it needs a 6 to hit and a 6 to glance. To illustrate my point, a chainfist could still damage a monolith on a 6 because it does get its STRENGTH bonus, but it would not get its PENETRATION bonus of 2d6. They are completely different things.

Nice try.

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Katie Drake

· #2 · Feb 9, 2006

Hmm... This is gonna turn into a seriously fiery dispute... lol.

Well, I agree with you 100%. It makes total sense. I just know we're going to have to defend our positions before long... lol.

Reactions: 1

Ostsol

· #3 · Feb 9, 2006

Regarding the issue, I don't pay much attention and have little to say about it.

However, regarding the White Dwarf. . . well, do not take it as an authority on the rules. Battle reports in WD issues have been known to occasionally be rather inaccurate portreyals of the rules.

Obsidian

· #4 · Feb 9, 2006

yes i do agree with you.

Quick! Lock the doors, get the marines ready! Everyone check your bolters!

But that is a logical arguement, i don't know actual rule so i can't say for sure, but if that is true, then that would be correct

Ostsol

· #5 · Feb 9, 2006

Okay, here we go. . .

What about the following quote from the FAQ:

When attacking a Monolith, extra penetration dice and doubling scores are much the same thing

The effects of a Powerfist is "doubling scores", so it seems that the FAQ does cover that as ineffective against the Monolith.

Katie Drake

· #6 · Feb 9, 2006

Ostsol said:
Okay, here we go. . .

What about the following quote from the FAQ:

The effects of a Powerfist is "doubling scores", so it seems that the FAQ does cover that as ineffective against the Monolith.

I believe the FAQ is refering to weapons which double the result of the penetration roll. A models modified strength is not a result.

Weapons such as Ork Tankbusta Bombs would do this, I believe.

Daedelus

· #7 · Feb 9, 2006

Would the comment about doubling scores be refering to the tankbusta bombs? The FAQ states to ignore any extra PENETRATION. Although strength factors into penetration, they are not the same thing, and as such should still be usable against the monolith.

Ostsol

· #8 · Feb 9, 2006

I suppose so, if that's what it's referring to.

Katie Drake

· #9 · Feb 9, 2006

Penetration is when you roll in an attempt to equal or beat the armor. This is why Melta Bombs, Melta Guns, Monstrous Creatures and so on so forth don't get a bonus. Also, Tank Hunters does not work, because it modifies the penetration roll. If the logic of powerfists not working against Monoliths is correct, that would also mean that things like Daemonic Strength, Dark Blades, Furious Charge and other STRENGTH modifying weapons and abilities would do nothing as well. Somehow, that seems very, very wrong to me.

LordCreampuff

· #10 · Feb 9, 2006

Why do people insist on opening new threads on subjects that have discussed to death?! The bottom line is this is another rule that is completely open to interpretation. We can argue both sides until we're red in the face and we won't solve a damn thing. Until GW releases a FAQ or rules update that clears this up it is all how you interpret it.

If you want to know people's opinions then read the previous posts. If you can't find them try searching for "monolith" and you'll find it. I doubt highly that any of us could offer an opinion that has not been offered before. The funny thing is even if you do it won't matter one bit unless GW publishes it.

Katie Drake

· #11 · Feb 9, 2006

LordCreampuff said:
Why do people insist on opening new threads on subjects that have discussed to death?! The bottom line is this is another rule that is completely open to interpretation. We can argue both sides until we're red in the face and we won't solve a damn thing. Until GW releases a FAQ or rules update that clears this up it is all how you interpret it.

If you want to know people's opinions then read the previous posts. If you can't find them try searching for "monolith" and you'll find it. I doubt highly that any of us could offer an opinion that has not been offered before. The funny thing is even if you do it won't matter one bit unless GW publishes it.

I fail to see how anyone could interpret it any differently, but you're likely right. This won't end here, as I've seen it brought up WAY too many times on this site and others. If people are interested in debating it, I'm all for it, because I love to argue

but yes, point taken.:yes:

Grey Wolf

· #12 · Feb 9, 2006

I've been involved with this argument for ages...and have really come to the understanding of how the rule has degraded into the mess that it is...
Ok now RAW it will disallow any thing except Str+1d6 for penetration, so Powerfists will not work...
BUT....
this is due to the fact that in the FAQ where it specifically mentions that "extra dice and doubling scores don't count" is only part of a previous FAQ that made more of a specific referance to the penetration Dice, (so those of you that say it only applies to doubling of the roll and adding dice are right by the old FAQ, and I agree that this really was the original way it worked, and the way that we play it in our group) but since they have dropped that clarifier it is now ambigous, and applies to a broader spectrum than what was originally set forth. So RAW now it doesn't work, But RAW before the current FAQ it didn't... Isn't GW wonderful!!
And a little rider about Penetration... if you read the section in the BGB about penetration it is shown as "Penetration=STR+D6" so please drop the argument the Str is not penetration. as i love to say, you are more than welcome to say and play that Str is not penetration, but when you attack any vehicle of mine, then i would love to see you get a 10 (or more) on a single d6!!! LOL!!!:wacko: anyway, gotta wrap up... Cheers and happy pounding!!!

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^Heavy Support^

Discussion Starter · #13 · Feb 9, 2006

LordCreampuff said:
Why do people insist on opening new threads on subjects that have discussed to death?! The bottom line is this is another rule that is completely open to interpretation. We can argue both sides until we're red in the face and we won't solve a damn thing. Until GW releases a FAQ or rules update that clears this up it is all how you interpret it.

If you want to know people's opinions then read the previous posts. If you can't find them try searching for "monolith" and you'll find it. I doubt highly that any of us could offer an opinion that has not been offered before. The funny thing is even if you do it won't matter one bit unless GW publishes it.

This rule is not completely open to interpretation! It is an open and shut case. The only FAQ that applies to the Monolith is the most recent one anyway.

Also, you cannot double a strength "SCORE" you can only double a penetration "SCORE"- score is something explicitly used to penetration rolling. Strength is a characteristic, not a score. My guardsmen do not have their strength "score" doubled by a powerfist. The word score means they are talking about penetration, not strength.

I cannot stress this enough- they have referred ONLY to penetration rolls!!! NOTHING, ANYWHERE says ANYTHING about strength EVER.

geo_ork

· #14 · Feb 9, 2006

Looking at the FAQ, the doubling mention for penetration is quite clear. It says; When attacking a monolith, extra penetration dice and doubling scores are much the same thing - don't count any bonus penetration of any sort for the monlith. You don't extra penetration dice or bonuses for the Talos, tank hunters, etc.

Thus, the clearly says nothing about strength. The doubling scores part refers to melta waepons and things like tankbusta bombs. It does not refer to things like power fists. Strength is modified by a power fist, not the penetration roll. Thus, as the strength of a powerfist is not doubled just because it is attacking a vehicle, but ALWAYs, it would still could as the doubled strength.

Strength is not a result doubled for penetration purposes. Strenght is not an extra penetration dice or something doubled as in a melta bomb. It is a doubled stat. Thus, it is clearly able to hurt a 'lith.

LordCreampuff

· #15 · Feb 9, 2006

I don't have my codex here but there is a direct mention in either the codex or the FAQ that states "only UNAUGMENTED strength may be used against the monolith". If a weapon increases the strength of the weilder by even one point then this has been "augmented" plain and simple.

Augment v. to make greater, more numerous, larger, or more intense

Since penetration rolls use Strength as their base this means that NOTHING that increases the strength of the weapon, increases the penetration roll, or decreases the armor value of the monolith work at all. So power fists, tank busters, bright lances, etc... work against the monolith.

Read into it all you want. No matter what you decide, no matter how much you complain, no matter what you believe, you are all wrong. Just like I am. Until GW provides a ruling on this subject (which they won't any time soon it seems) all you're doing is wasting electrons.

Let's save some electrons shall we? Can we have this thread closed as a redundant waste of time?

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Ostsol

· #16 · Feb 9, 2006

LordCreampuff said:
I don't have my codex here but there is a direct mention in either the codex or the FAQ that states "only UNAUGMENTED strength may be used against the monolith". If a weapon increases the strength of the weilder by even one point then this has been "augmented" plain and simple.

Somehow that does sound familiar, but I can't find anything in the FAQ or codex stating such a thing.

^Heavy Support^

Discussion Starter · #17 · Feb 9, 2006 (Edited)

oops.

Xiahou Dun

· #18 · Feb 9, 2006

^Heavy Support^ said:
Obviously, you do not have your codex. In the necron codex is says absolutely nothing about the strength. It only says penetration. THE END. The penetration value cannot be augmented, and there is nothing about strength anywhere.

I am afraid you are the only one reading into it. There is no mention of strength augmentation anywhere- wishful thinking is more like it.

It's right here

http://uk.games-workshop.com/chapterapproved/errata/assets/necrons-errata.pdf

Last line of the living metal rule.

Ostsol

· #19 · Feb 9, 2006

Gah. . . that document has such an annoying layout. . .

Anyway, it explains the matter pretty clearly and does mention strength augmentation.

Sleepy

· #20 · Feb 9, 2006 (Edited)

LordCreampuff said:
I don't have my codex here but there is a direct mention in either the codex or the FAQ that states "only UNAUGMENTED strength may be used against the monolith". If a weapon increases the strength of the weilder by even one point then this has been "augmented" plain and simple.

Augment v. to make greater, more numerous, larger, or more intense

Since penetration rolls use Strength as their base this means that NOTHING that increases the strength of the weapon, increases the penetration roll, or decreases the armor value of the monolith work at all. So power fists, tank busters, bright lances, etc... work against the monolith.

Read into it all you want. No matter what you decide, no matter how much you complain, no matter what you believe, you are all wrong. Just like I am. Until GW provides a ruling on this subject (which they won't any time soon it seems) all you're doing is wasting electrons.

Let's save some electrons shall we? Can we have this thread closed as a redundant waste of time?

Thank you again! You just seem to be beating me to these types of posts, but at least you used a dictionary to help your case.

Thats right. It is on the last line of the living metal rule. Make sure you read the entire rule carefully. Even the little fluff blurbs can help you to understand it. I understand if you just read over it. I've read rules multiple times and still not actually "read" them

The reason why he wants the thread closed is because we just went through about 5 pages of this exact same thing (almost, but very close) just...what... a week ago? Thats why. Just a few threads down, still on the front page.

Armor penetration is what you do whenever you attack a vehical. It is S + d6, then certain weapons have special abilites that give it added penetration dice.

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