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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
That last thread shouldn't have been closed because of redundency- it wouldn't have been a problem if the thread before it hadn't already been closed! Why stifle conversation? If someone thinks this topic has been debated too much, then don't comment on it and don't read it. That is the same as going to a soccer game on your own free will, then sitting in the stands yammering about how much you hate watching soccer games. No one is forcing you to read it, so please don't complain about it and please don't lock the thread.

These forums exist for lively discussion- that is their purpose. If people write over 3 pages and view the post over 500 times in a little over a day then a lot of people are interested in what is going on. This discussion does not hurt anything, and many people are interested. Please just let it be.

As I stated in the previous thread, a powerfist increases the user's strength only when it is used in combat. It doesn't permanently increase the strength of the user. It is perfectly legal to have both a powerfist and powersword on a single model. When the model attacks with the powersword they are at their base strength and when using the powerfist they are at their augmented strength of base strength x 2.

Yes- the USER's strength, not the weapon. The powerfist as a weapon has twice the strength of the user. The powerfist will always have this strength and that is the strength of the weapon. The rule only states that the WEAPON's strength cannot be augmented. The strength of the powerfist is not augmented. The living metal rule says nothing about the user at all, anywhere. Thus when a marine attacks a monolith with a powerfist, the powerfist as a weapon hits with strength 8.

The powerfist has a set strength value as 2x the user- you can read it in the rulebook if you want.

Your PENETRATION roll is STRENGTH + 1D6 so anything that increases strength when it is used as a weapon increases the penetration roll and according to the FAQ it is not allowed against the Monolith plain and simple.

That is not true at all. Yes, obviously higher strength will increase a penetration roll, but it says nothing about banning strength in the FAQ. It says "do not count any bonus penetration of any sort" and this is very specific. Meltaguns give you bonus penetration. You are using strength and penetration interchangeably. I cannot shoot a meltagun at the nightbringer and roll get a bonus 2d6 to my strength. Strength and penetration are two entirely different things.
 

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What he was saying was that when you strike a vehicle, you roll for penetration. So he was sticking together the facts that penetration is when you hit vehicles, this includes S. It does mention strength in the FAQ, I read it, but I'm to lazy to go find it again, it is just to late for that. Yea, you don't get any bonuses when shooting characters. Bonus for vehicles means they can make the armor look high and still make it fair. the other reason for this is to fully represent weapons that are specialized against vehicles, by giving them high S and bonus dice to the bonus die.


Dang, I got stuck to far in and posted to early, now I have to some how fix this

wouldn't the user themselves count as a weapon? do grots even have knifes, don't they have to throw themselves at an opponent? so they have a S of 2 and they have only their bodies, I think. So if a user is the weapon, wouldn't the powerfist be an augmentation of that weapon?

The entire point power fists are debated the most is because they are the closest to all rules. They times the users S by 2. Because of the "no augmentations" clause, I could technically argue that ork rokits don't get a +1. Or any weapon that hits with +#. Like tyranid weapons, but I don't really care about those because they can only glance the lith at max.

Sorry if this is just going to be closed again, I just can't help my self from answering. I think it is a disease. The pursuet of answers and being right. But in this case I don't care, because only one opponent has space marines and he focuses on plasma and rocket weapons.
 

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ok, I've always been a proponent of logic so le'ts try and apply it the problem at hand.

Now, your main point seems to be that the user's strength is being augmented and not the weapon's. But... what's the difference?

ok logical steps time..... A powerfist doubles(augments) the user's strength, thereby increasing (augmenting) the weapons strength. Take out all the stuff in the middle and it ends up just being 'A powerfist augments the weapons strength'. You see the weapon's strength and the user's strength are one and the same thing, you can't increase one without increasing the other. So it's easy to say that a powerfist augments the weapon's strength, albeit by a slightly roundabout way.

Also, what sleepy said(and whoever saind it before that) is a good point as well. The penetration roll is strength + 1d6. The FAQ says "do not count any bonus penetration of any sort". Of any sort is an important phrase here, implying that it's not only talking about melta guns and the such with adds to the d6 side, but also to anything that adds to the strength side because that is still part of the penetration roll and so would be bonus penetration.
 

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It is redundant. I can't see how there is anything of value to say that hasn't already been said.
 

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Ostsol said:
It is redundant. I can't see how there is anything of value to say that hasn't already been said.
True, but like sleepy said, I just can't help myself. This thread will get locked but perhaps we can make him see reason before that happens or else we may just end up doing it in yet another thread.
 

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I don't see a point. If the last thread didn't convince him, nothing less than official text from GW will. At this point it's best to simply agree to disagree.
 

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Too Sexy For My Whirlwind
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Obviously he is not going to agree with the rest of you guys. He shouldn't have re-opend this thread mind you, as once a mod says the topic is done it is done, so just leave it alone and let him take the warning.
 

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Monkey of Mystery
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I'm not even sure which way the guy is arguing... For my 2c I let powerfists work against the monolith. Yes, I've read the codex and yes, I've read the FAQ and the rule book updates. The living metal protects it from extra penetration, bonuses to penetration (this getting saucy) and doubling of penetration (see what I mean;)). The powerfist just gives the wielder a new, higher CC S value. Equiping a model with a bigger gun gives it a higher shooting S value and that's never argued over. It does list chainfists by name but only to clear up the extra d6 of penetration. If it affected the strength mod then I'm sure that would have been covered too as it affects so many different weapons.

This topic really seems to get on peoples nerves and I'm not sure why.
 

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The Paint monkey said:
This topic really seems to get on peoples nerves and I'm not sure why.
It's because it's devolved from discussion to argument. Everyone has their view and sticks to it, and as I've said: anything further is pointless.
 

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Ostsol said:
It's because it's devolved from discussion to argument. Everyone has their view and sticks to it, and as I've said: anything further is pointless.
That's not completely true, if you look at the previous thread on this I was originally arguing that powerfists did work against monoliths. Anyway, having thought about this a fair bit it's really far too open to interpretation to be settled here. so yeah, it is pointless.
 

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The thread was closed, rightly, because it was just giving people the wrong idea. It clearly states in the rules that Fists and other such score doublers do not against the monolith, and so there is no point in debating it.

It is a rule, not an opinion, and as such all this thread is acheiving is that some people are getting doubts about the rule.

Which they shouldn't because it is a clearly stated rule.

PFs, PKs, etc. do not count against the monolith.

You can play it however you want, but this is the GW written rule.
 

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Monkey of Mystery
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Tunisia said:
it is a clearly stated rule.

PFs, PKs, etc. do not count against the monolith.

You can play it however you want, but this is the GW written rule.
I really have to disagree with you there. Part of the problem is the ambiguity. The interpretation that PF don't work is something I've only come across on this site. The intrepretation we've always used was that the weapon's S is 2x the users S. Living metal doesn't affect the weapons S, only it's penetration. I really believe that the doubling that is referred to is the doubling of penetration scores, not weapon strengths.

Sure, I understand that people are a bit tired of this but I'm a little surprised that it is read any other way. I'll put the issue down and walk away, though, as long as everyone else does.
 

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The FAQ says 'unaugmented strength'.

What does a PF do, if not augment strength?
 

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Monkey of Mystery
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Yeah, that seems to be the crux of the problem. One side says the strength is 4 'augmented' to 8. The other side seems to believe the weapon str IS 2x the user (usually 8)- that's just what it's strength is. Tucked in with the second group is the idea that the monolith doesn't negate S bonuses anyway- only penetration (I'm flying my flag with this group). The explanation in the FAQ seems pretty clear that they're only talking about penetration, not strength.
I know WD isn't necessarily the best rules reference but the fact that doubled strength was used in a battle report does kinda indicate the studios natural inclination to allow this against the monolith.

And the wierd thing is- I play necrons and I'm arguing for the bonuses to apply. Odd.
 

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I would say that the double strength would count as either doubling scores or as a strength augmentation.

One interpretation is that it is not an augmentation, because it is not the weapon which is adding a bonus, it is that the PF is like an item, which doubles the basic strength, giving them a basic strength of 8.

However, this is not true because a marine with a Fist and a Sword, if he attacks with the sword, does not get the PF strength bonus. Therefore the PF is augmenting the strength of the user, because it only changes when you attack with the PF, and strength augmentation is disallowed against the monoltih.

I, too, once thought that the living metal rule only worked when it was changing the penetration- ie. it was better against tanks than infantry, like bright lances. However, with 'unaugmented strength', this threw it into a whole new light.

On the subject of doubling scores, does anybody knows of a weapon which rolls a single AP dice, and then doubles that? not 2D6, but D6 x2? If they exist, then there is slightly more cause for the confusion, if not, then the PF certainly does not work.
 

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Monkey of Mystery
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Tunisia said:
However, this is not true because a marine with a Fist and a Sword, if he attacks with the sword, does not get the PF strength bonus. Therefore the PF is augmenting the strength of the user, because it only changes when you attack with the PF, and strength augmentation is disallowed against the monoltih.
Yeah, I read that example too. It's a bit slippery- try reading it this way. The model has the PF and PS. When attacking with the sword he's S4- fine. When he's attacking with the fist he's S8- also fine. However this bit-
Tunisia said:
Therefore the PF is augmenting the strength of the user, because it only changes when you attack with the PF
- is a bit weak. He's only S8 when he's attacking with the fist because the fist is S8 not the user. You follow me? I'm saying it's the weapons strength, not the users. Like in shooting- the weapon is a bolter; S4, the weapon is a LasCannon; S9. We're not 'augmenting' the marines strength just giving him a more powerful weapon. The 'lith doesn't negate strength bonuses. I still believe that if the powerfist/chainfist/powerklaw/thunderhammer/etc attack was negated it would be mentioned specifically- there's really a lot of them out there.

And to answer your other question, yes, there was (is?) some sort of grenade (I think) that used 1D6 but doubled the score- I think it was Orky but I don't have their codex handy. I vaguely remember reading a Q&A that covered it.
 

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[This is reposted from the other thread, the numbered questions asked after the quotes were never answered by the starter of these threads. In particular question #1, which is covered by the quotes below and seems to be the key to the entire argument regarding "power fists" versus "living metal". I would ask the poster of this thread to read the quotes and respond to these questions: providing the full relevant references (i.e. book, page, and quote) for any counter argument]

Some relevant rule sections are described below:


Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook 4th Edition, Page 46, Special Close Combat Attacks, Power Fist / Claw, Second Paragraph:

"It doubles the user's Strength (up to maximum of 10), ..."

"Only the user's basic Strength is doubled - any additional bonus for special abilities are added afterwards."


Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook 4th Edition, Page 55, Monstrous Creatures, Assault Phase, Second Paragraph:

"Some Monstrous Creatures have weapons that augment their Strength (Such as the Eldar Wraithlord's Power Fist) or ..."


Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook 4th Edition, Page 73, Vehicles and Assaults, Dreadnought Close Combat Weapons:

"If a Dreadnought is armed with a close combat weapon, it doubles it Strength in close combat (up to a maximum of 10) ..."

"Further Armament ... but will prevent it gaining the benefits of Dreadnought close combat weapons if that armament is destroyed (so the dreadnought will fight at it's base Strength, ..."


Codex: Necron, Page 21, Monolith, Living Metal:

"Ordnance Weapons still roll 2D6 for Armour Penetration and select the highest score. In practice, any weapon attacking the Monolith will roll for armour penetration using its unaugumented strength and a single D6 no matter what."


Necron FAQ V4.0.1. Page 1, Column 2, The Monolith, Bullet 7:

"- When attacking a Monolith, extra penetration dice and doubling scores are much the same thing - don't count ANY bonus penetration of ANY sort against a Monolith. So no bonus for multiple Talos attacks, tank hunter veteran skills, etc. The only exception if the Vindicaire Assassins' turbo penetration round, as this shell is not bonus penetration as such, it will work. Note that you still roll 2D6 and pick the higher when attacking a Monolith with ordnance Weapons."



#1. The wraithlords power fist and the space marines power first are different how exactly?


#2. Much more interesting are amongst others these attacks (particularly as the Living Metal rule might occur on a vehicle with less than AV 14):


a) where you generate the strength randomly:

Zapp Gunn


b) that have no strength:

Needle Pistol
Sniper Rifle
Ranger Long Rifle
Wraithcannon


c) the weapon strength is defined as a modified user strength:

Barbed strangler
Devourer
Deathspitter
Venom Cannon
Hellglaive
Honour Blade
Axes of Khorne
Chaos Great Weapon


d) special abilities, skills or equipment that modify user strength:

Tau Battlesuits
Furious Charge
Daemonic Strength
Daemonic Stature
Juggernaught of Khorne
Oblitarators


e) weapons (and powers) which can cause vehicle damage using a special rule

Disruption Fields
Machine Curse
Gauss
Vibro Cannon
Wraith Cannon
Haywire Grenade
EMP Grenade


f) Living Metal versus Living Metal

Warscythe versus Monolith


g) Necrodermis versus Living Metal

C'Tan Phase Sword versus Monolith
C'Tan versus Monolith


h) Living Metal versus Necrodermis

Monolith versus C'Tan ("Tank Shock" and "Death or Glory")


i) Living Metal versus Distort Cannon (a heavy weapon using the ordnance table)


j) Consistency between Living Metal and Necrodermis
 

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I see your point, and have just read the PF entry in the BGB:

A power fist or claw is a powered, armoured gauntlet surrounded by a disruptive energy field. It doubles the user's strength (up to a maximum of 10), ignoring Armour saves. Only the user's basic strength is doubled- any additional bonus for special abilites is added afterwards. A power fist is slow and cumbersome... (goes on to explain about I1)

Had the PF had a strength in itself, the entry would have read 'It strikes/attacks with twice the user's strength'. However, the wording in the BGB seems to suggest that it affects the user, rather than the user affecting it.

Hence, it is augmenting the marine's strength.
 
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Monkey of Mystery
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Hmmm.... I may have to concede there. I didn't realise there were so many different modifiers available. It was the Wraithlord section that convinced me I think (even though it's a monstrous creature and a marine isn't). Fair cop, I'll have to try and convince my opponents that the monolith is even more invulnerable now.
 

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Normal member Fox D:
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We JUST went over this a couple weeks ago.

It is quite clear that you do not count strength augmentations when attacking the monolith. This includes tank hunters, power fists and anything else that gives any sort of bonus. In all cases, when attacking the monolith, you use the attackers base strength + d6 or the weapons base strength +d6.

This is how it worked in both GT's ive been to. People can decide what they want to do, however, if you go to an official GW tournament, they will not count the doubling effect of a powerfist against monoliths.

Be Warned.

*closed for redundancy*

Any decision made by the Admins or Mods is final.

If you feel you have been wrongly warned or had your account suspended for the wrong reasons then you should send a PM message to the Mods superior (Forum Mods --> Global Mods --> Admins) Your appeal will then be reviewed by the LO staff as a whole and you will be informed of the decision.

No one is forcing you to read it, so please don't complain about it and please don't lock the thread.
What do you think a being a mod entails?

*locked*

Toastee
 
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