[ForthTheThunder]

There great at the moment. Are'nt they? Able to take on almost any foe conceivable.

But will they still be worth it in 5th edition if the rumours of the powerfist nerf hold true?

ie The -1 attack. Otherwise I'll just give me DA-RW biker verteran sergeants power swords.
ps You guys think plasma guns are good with bikes? Or are meltas just DOWNRIGHT better.


So what do you guys think.

 

[The Toon]

Melta guns are much better in my opinion if you a playing something with high ap models and a descent number of armor in the army. But power fists will still be worth it just not as efficient.

 

[Gorbass]

Meltas are slightly better and much much safer on bikes, losing a 15pts marine due to your own shooting is bad enough, you really dont what to lose somthing that costs over twice as much...

 

[Orange Dragon]

I don't know much whats going to be in 5th ed. But from what I do know is that you will need to pay for 2 powerfist/power weapons, to get the +1 for dual weapons.

But as for melta guns, they are far better than plasma guns on bikes. Because you will probaly be moveing your bikes, so your plasma gun can only shoot half range, which is then the same range as your melta gun. Also, your melta gun will be a higher strenth, and better AP, and you don't have to worry about burning yourself with a melta gun.

 

[NTFH]

space wolves will only be a little less strong in counter attack

 

[mika]

But if you play Ravenwing, then plasma on bikes coupled with an apothecary is a really good deal.

 

[Ninja Snarl]

Considering how nasty a powerfist is, I think 5th edition making it so you only get one attack per powerfist is completely reasonable. Considering a single powerfist can kill most vehicles, acts as a power weapon, and can insta-kill most units, limiting power fists is one of the only rule changes that actually makes sense. The Initiative 1 part is almost completely irrelevant as it is now simply because whatever carries a power fist tends to have the saves or wounds to have little trouble with surviving long enough to survive to use the weapon.

Plus, the ridiculous Run! rule for every army more than makes up for power fists being toned down a bit.

 

[ForgedInTheFurnaceOfWar]

But when space marines are redone, powerfists will cost 10 points more. So a 2 attack powerfist is going to worse then the powerfists of 3rd edition.

 

[cheeseman]

But when space marines are redone, powerfists will cost 10 points more. So a 2 attack powerfist is going to worse then the powerfists of 3rd edition.

That is a good point. So then they will pretty much be a suicide weapon no?

 

[Ninja Snarl]

But when space marines are redone, powerfists will cost 10 points more. So a 2 attack powerfist is going to worse then the powerfists of 3rd edition.

So? Space Marines have melta bombs for assaulting vehicles and melta weapons to fire at range (as well as the BS to be reliable with melta shots). Considering that powerfists can make you strength 10, making them pricey seems pretty reasonable. Space Marines already have good melta weaponry and lascannons, so the powerfists costing more shouldn't really be an issue. As a comparison, look at a Tau rail gun for a Hammerhead tank. The rail gun alone costs 50 points not counting the cost of the tank itself and that's for a weapon that fires at most 6 times a game.

Considering that powerfists are, right now, pretty heavily overpowered and underpriced, Space Marine armies should be happy if that's their major issue to worry about. Look at the poor Tyranids: their most powerful gun can only glance, but glancing will no longer destroy a vehicle (save open-topped vehicles or skimmers). Plus, rending being downgraded takes a chunk out of the Tyranid armies fairly limited anti-tank effectiveness.

Plus, how many players actually rely on powerfists to do most of the damage? I've played against a bunch of Space Marine lists and powerfists just don't come up that much. The most horrifying use I've seen for them is the ridiculous new Biker Warboss + Biker Nobs + Pain Boy + Powerfists unit for the Orks. Cover saves, decent armor saves, Feels No Pain, invulnerable saves, multiple wound models, AND 15+ powerfist attacks on the assault. Unless they stupidly run into an ultra-CC squad with powerweapons, they're gonna wipe out pretty much everything they hit. I wouldn't be surprised if Games Workshop has that specific tactic in mind by nerfing the powerfist rules.

 

[ForgedInTheFurnaceOfWar]

So? Space Marines have melta bombs for assaulting vehicles and melta weapons to fire at range (as well as the BS to be reliable with melta shots). Considering that powerfists can make you strength 10, making them pricey seems pretty reasonable.

None of this has anything to do with how effective or ineffective a powerfist is. Secondly, there are no powerfists with strength 10 in the space marine range, except perhaps for 13th company.

Space Marines already have good melta weaponry and lascannons, so the powerfists costing more shouldn't really be an issue.

And why wouldn't that be an issue? None of those weapons are effective in close combat. Powerfists are an extremely poor way to hunt tanks, about they only army powerfists can ever do any damage to is IG.

Considering that powerfists are, right now, pretty heavily overpowered and underpriced, Space Marine armies should be happy if that's their major issue to worry about. Look at the poor Tyranids: their most powerful gun can only glance, but glancing will no longer destroy a vehicle (save open-topped vehicles or skimmers). Plus, rending being downgraded takes a chunk out of the Tyranid armies fairly limited anti-tank effectiveness.

Perhaps you should read the rest of the rumors before jumping to conclusions. That said, nids have 2 guns which can be strength 10, of which one is glancing hits only, in 4th edition.
And wont be so in 5th.

And nidzillas don't have any trouble winning games.

Plus, how many players actually rely on powerfists to do most of the damage?

Any none blood angel space marine player as well as chaos, relies on the powerfist to kill the majority of the enemy. HQs are about the only model a space marine player wont give a powerfist too, who also has access to the space marine armory, for standard marines.

I've played against a bunch of Space Marine lists and powerfists just don't come up that much.

Then obvioulsy you have little understanding of what a competitive space marine list is.

The most horrifying use I've seen for them is the ridiculous new Biker Warboss + Biker Nobs + Pain Boy + Powerfists unit for the Orks. Cover saves, decent armor saves, Feels No Pain, invulnerable saves, multiple wound models, AND 15+ powerfist attacks on the assault. Unless they stupidly run into an ultra-CC squad with powerweapons, they're gonna wipe out pretty much everything they hit. I wouldn't be surprised if Games Workshop has that specific tactic in mind by nerfing the powerfist rules.

The bottom line is, space marines are getting double nerfed, a raised in point cost for powerfists, and one less attack with them. This will probably lead a lot of players to fielding other weapons. And will lead me to playing Dark Eldar - hopefully.

 

[Tekore]

While I wouldn't be ready to leave the Space Marines just yet (especially since I"m always willing to wait and see what the book looks like when it really comes out), it is nonsense to say this isn't a significant change in the way our army works, especially in competition. Maybe in little games for giggles you won't see many powerfists, but you will in any real list at this time. That being said, running will change a lot of things, and there may be other things in the book(s) that change things. If the current powerfist change happened, alone, to our armies now, it would be huge. But I'm willing to see how it runs in the full context of fifth edition and the new SM book in a few months or so.

Tekore

 

[Gorfang]

Meh, powerfists will revert back to their cost in 3rd edition? So what? They still won tournaments back then. They'll still win now. Sure, you'll have one less attack. That will amount to maybe 2-3 fewer kills over the course of the entire game, which can be made up for by:
-Changes to Gets Hot!
-Changes to Template Weapons (this is an upgrade no matter your BS, especially considering partials==fulls)
-Changes to Rending

Space Marines will not be nerfed. Rather, the uses for weapons will be adjusted.

 

[Ninja Snarl]

Talky talky talky. Talky.

No, 'Nids have ONE S 10 gun. The other S 10 shot is a psychic power with horrible range that for some bizarre reason also uses BS as well as a psychic test to fire successfully.

As far as this comment: "then obviously you have little understanding of what a competitive space marine list is". Yes, because ALL competitive Space Marine require powerfists to be competitive. I guess being able to have power weapons all over the place is something useless when compared to the powerfist. I guess pointing out that virtually all the Space Marine players that I face play competitively would also mean nothing. Also, apparently Games Workshop is only allowed to look at Space Marines armies for balancing the powerfist because nobody else has them, right?

The powerfists are getting balanced, not destroyed. Getting the equivalent of a heavy tank shot in CC should be pricey and have some serious drawbacks.

Space Marines are one of Games Workshop's biggest moneymakers, so I sincerely doubt they'll trash the army. Powerfists will still rock, just with a more reasonable price and number of attacks.

 

[Connor Ivering]

I'm fine with the Blood angels pricing if they increase the cost by a few points whatever, but what is the logical basis for losing one attack the thing is a POWERED FIST not and unpowered super heavy glove

 

[darkreever]

Yes, because ALL competitive Space Marine require powerfists to be competitive. I guess being able to have power weapons all over the place is something useless when compared to the powerfist. I guess pointing out that virtually all the Space Marine players that I face play competitively would also mean nothing. Also, apparently Games Workshop is only allowed to look at Space Marines armies for balancing the powerfist because nobody else has them, right?

The powerfists are getting balanced, not destroyed. Getting the equivalent of a heavy tank shot in CC should be pricey and have some serious drawbacks.

Space Marines are one of Games Workshop's biggest moneymakers, so I sincerely doubt they'll trash the army. Powerfists will still rock, just with a more reasonable price and number of attacks.

Rep to you sir, especially for that first line (just overflowing with sarcasm there.)

Ninja Snarl is very right, space marines are GW's posterboys for 40k; if the rumours are hinting to them being nerfed than it should be pretty obvious how credible those rumours are. How often has GW done more harm than good to their biggest cash cow in 40k?

 

[ForthTheThunder]

so I don't need to freak out and give power swords to my biker sergeants instead? k

 

[Katie Drake]

Forged, Ninja, I'd like it if you guys backed off a bit and stopped eying one another's throats. Debate and discussion is fine, but there's no reason to get nasty and sarcastic.

Thanks.

Katie D

 

[Spook2k5]

I'm perfectly fine with whatever 'nerf' we recieve in terms of powerfist cost. Frankly, the things are entirely too damn ubiquitious these days. its gotten to the point that I don't build additional tactical squads unless I can find the little microscopic bit that only seems to exist in assault marine and devestator sprues.

And there are many good reasons for why it -is- being nerfed.

1.) As a space marine player, I view the points I have to spend on a commander as sort of like the brussel sprouts of the meal that is my marines. Why? As nasty as my chaplain is, a ten man tac squad will blow a round of combat just to single him out and whallop him with 3 str "You gunna die, punk!" attacks, and one failed save and he's kimshee.

2.) The thing serves primarilly as a deterrant. Its no fun to use because it goes last, its no fun to fight because it just smushes things.

3.) If they're going to push us for bigger squad sizes, they have to defang the thing a bit, else you've got the '10 wound powerfist' flying around again.

Personally, the only reason I see us neeed a power fist all the time is for fighting monstrous creatures and walkers. If they make large enough grenades available (and make them work in assault against big-uns), I don't mind as much if we lose our 'reliable' anti-MC weapon.

 

[Norngahl]

I'm quite happy about the nerfed powerfist, because in comparision my Thunderhammer on Belial with a command squad with standart bearer is going to be harder. 4 attacks, in charge 5 with strength 8 and stunning, that's realy nice, while the typical marines will only have two attacks. I think it's quite fair and you might find Powerfists and Thunderhammers more often on IC. I always hated those IC only running around with TLC or (the cheap version) with powerswords. Now that the powerfists are nerved more IC will bear those weapons, as usual troops will bear the LC or powerweapons because of the heavily increased points and the reduced attacks. So my Belial will become more effective and harder. I think it's a fair deal, because before the only SM credo was "Eat rending! Eat powerfists! Eat super-hyper-200point charakters!" Trough this new rules characters will chose "heavy" weapons more often, using there high attacks and strengh instead of there initiative with "low" damage weapons, while the squads will do the low powerweapon/... damage because they will not lose attacks. Also the Terminators are now threatend more fairly, as they ever only had two attacks while a nobody sergeant had a meatshield of 9 extra wounds and 3 attacks. I think this change is really a good step foreward.