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Admittedly, this is a rant, but I feel its a rant that offers a positive alternative.

While I understand the Primarchs were designed as super-human immortals, I feel like GW has let it go a little too crazy for my tastes. The stuff like Sanguinius killing a bloodthrister by breaking its back is awesome, but it should came after a hard fought battle. Leman Russ killing a Titian is, to me at least, pretty dumb. That's sounds like something you'd see on Dragon Ball Z.

The emperor as I understand it was a great psychic and a leader of men. The Primarchs could certainly be be much beefier than your average marine, say a stateline of 7's, and take a lascannon to the chest, but I don't think they should these total walking gods. To me it would be more interesting if there were just such great and commanding leaders that they could inspire billions to fight to the end.

Marines kind of suffer from a muted, dogmatic lifestyle that doesn't really encourage charismatic, creative thinkers. You're a warrior, you fight your whole life, kill the alien, the mutant, etc. I think the emphasis Primarchs should taken off the primarchs being amazing warriors, and focused more on them being amazing leaders that really tied together humanity under the emperor's vision. Current marines just can't emulate or achieve the same level of charisma. Not the walking demi-gods there are now. That's how all the great leaders where in history anyways.
 

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One Awesome Dude
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SWAT really does have the right idea. A lot of these things that seem silly to you now will make a whole lot more sense and seem true if you read some of the Horus Heresy novels. Many of the Primarchs (though certainly not all) did have a creative vision of what mankind could be, Horus perhaps having the most positive vision of it, ironically enough. Space Marines are so...funky now because of the events in the Horus Heresy where too much freedom/free thinking got them into trouble. The Primarchs pretty much were walking gods, though I'll agree Leman Russ taking down a titan does seem a bit far fetched - what fluff are you citing that from?

Seriously though, check out the Horus Heresy Series, I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.
 

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The stuff like Sanguinius killing a bloodthrister by breaking its back is awesome, but it should came after a hard fought battle.
Not entirely sure on your wording here Dr. Paris, if that came should be come than believe me, Sanginius's actions against that bloodthirster were definately after a very long and very hard fought battle.

(That same daemon had broken the back of Sanginius before the blood angels had been able to return to terra just before the siege. Sanginius returned the blow in the final moments at the battle for Eternity gate when he was holding off the tides of daemons and traitors alone while imperial forces retreated to the inner sanctum of the imperial palace.)

Leman Russ killing a Titian is, to me at least, pretty dumb. That's sounds like something you'd see on Dragon Ball Z.
I have never read or remember seeing anything of this before, and it sounds like little more than something that might have been in a space wolf novel, used to make Russ sound even mightier. (Which would make perfect sense, seeing as most marines do see their primarchs as having been mighty men capable of mighty deeds.)

but I don't think they should these total walking gods. To me it would be more interesting if there were just such great and commanding leaders that they could inspire billions to fight to the end.
The primarchs were never just walking gods, they always were leaders of men, its just that they were the leaders of super human men more than normal men. (But they led normal men and women as well.) Every primarch was capable of inspiring billions to fight alongside them, but that would mean little if they could not inspire awe by being able to do so much, which is why they were seen as walking gods.)

Marines kind of suffer from a muted, dogmatic lifestyle that doesn't really encourage charismatic, creative thinkers. You're a warrior, you fight your whole life, kill the alien, the mutant, etc.
Never, and I do mean never, mistake a heresy era marine with a 40k marine; the two are completely different. Marines of the 31st millenium were not psycho-indoctrinated warrior monks that gave up all of their former life to be a living, breathing weapon. The marines of old were men who had been made into something better to liberate and reunite the lost colonies of humanity, to lead the armies of man, who were not able to become space marines, to the glory of an empire united.

Marines of the 41st millenium are little more than warrior-monk serveants, psycho indoctrinated to be loyal to a fault, and are the protectors of the Imperium. Not its uniters, not the leaders of the normal soldiers, and certainly not warriors whose mission is to carve out an empire from lost colonies. (Marines of the 41st millenium are merely guardian's, guarding a space empire that has limped on for thousands of years.)

I think the emphasis Primarchs should taken off the primarchs being amazing warriors, and focused more on them being amazing leaders that really tied together humanity under the emperor's vision. Current marines just can't emulate or achieve the same level of charisma. Not the walking demi-gods there are now. That's how all the great leaders where in history anyways.
As SWAT said before, read the Horus heresy novels; they paint a much different picture of the primarchs. Those, currently, six novels are ones that you should read before saying anything about GW and the direction they have taken with primarch fluff.

Also as before, 41st millenium marines are not 31st millenium marines and never will be; the closest you'll ever come to one of those in the present is in a chaos marine, and they have all been changed since then.
 
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The story about the old Viking bringing down a Titan was in the Space Wolf novels, if i am not mistaken. There is another story of him where he pulls up a Kraken from the Ocean, only to toss it away because it was too small. But i guess thats more folklore. You see, those events happened 10,000 years ago. With time, truth turns to legend, legend turns to myth, and myths are eventually forgotten. Maybe Bjorn the Fell-Handed does remember, but he has been Dreadnought for quite some time now and even his mind isn't quite the same as in his living days.
I guess the Horus Heresy novels give a very good look about how the Primarchs truly were. I especially like the scene in the first act of the Heresy-Novels, where Horus personally takes out the ruler of a planet/empire. That was just awesome.
Think about what it meant to fight alongside a Primarch. Even for a Marine, they were walking legends, let alone for any normal human. They were stronger, faster and more intelligent then any other human, safe for the Emperor himself. So if one of them is described in those books, its from the perspective of a Space Marine, who is also very powerful. One can only guess what it would have meant for a normal human to stand before a towering legend, clothed in ornate armor, surrounded by the wisdom and power of hundreds of years of constant warfare. I guess thats the reason the storys of GW paint them in the way they do, because thats just what happens to leaders like them after so many centuries have passed. Alexander the Great or Caesar are good examples of our time.
 

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Dusk Phantom
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With time, truth turns to legend, legend turns to myth, and myths are eventually forgotten.
Seems like someone's been watching too much LotR. Anyway - check out the Horus Heresy series, I think you'll like the portrayal of many Primarchs. Just... well personally I didn't enjoy Fulgrim as much. Not because it's a bad read, it's an excellent read, I didn't like it because how horrible Fulgrim is - but I think it's worth reading if only so you can see how he works, what makes him tick and his fall from grace.
 

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Wher dat naked blue chik?
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Never, and I do mean never, mistake a heresy era marine with a 40k marine; the two are completely different. Marines of the 31st millenium were not psycho-indoctrinated warrior monks that gave up all of their former life to be a living, breathing weapon. The marines of old were men who had been made into something better to liberate and reunite the lost colonies of humanity, to lead the armies of man, who were not able to become space marines, to the glory of an empire united.

Marines of the 41st millenium are little more than warrior-monk serveants, psycho indoctrinated to be loyal to a fault, and are the protectors of the Imperium. Not its uniters, not the leaders of the normal soldiers, and certainly not warriors whose mission is to carve out an empire from lost colonies. (Marines of the 41st millenium are merely guardian's, guarding a space empire that has limped on for thousands of years.)

Also as before, 41st millenium marines are not 31st millenium marines and never will be; the closest you'll ever come to one of those in the present is in a chaos marine, and they have all been changed since then.
Right on. I think nobody could have said this better. Just remember: They don't make them like they used to.
 

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Son of LO
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The other thing to remember is all Primarchs were psykers.. Yes, even Russ, he might not have consciously concieved himself as such, but he was. When he fought, he didn't use his muscles very much.. Rather, he unconsciously sucked massive ammounts of energy from the warp to make himself impossibly strong.

Therefore, it is a bit more like DBZ than you might think (much as saying that makes me shudder), not in the sense of lots of shouting and hurling energy around, but in the sense that power comes from energy channeled through the body, not simply physical strength.

And that's why marines don't match up to them and never will.. The Primarchs weren't just powered up humans with superhuman organs. They were more like miniature versions of the Emperor himself.
 

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Son of LO
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I'll admit to a latent use of the Warp being present in all Primarchs, since they were immersed in it at an embryonic level and were created from the genetic material of an incredible psyker, but;

- having psychic abilities don't make you a psyker. It sounds silly put that way, but that's how it works. Only a few Primarchs ever manipulated their psychic power to an arcane purpose, and two of them were done subconsciously, for the purposes of premonition. Magnus was the only real psyker-primarch. The Witch-King, for all those LotR fans hiding in them corners thar. It's certainly possible they were using it when they were hit by a tank shell to shield themselves, and when they were wounded they called on the Warp to heal themselves, and when they needed to pick something up they used latent psychokinesis. But they couldn't read minds and hurl kamehamehas' all over the show. Maybe they had a tingling when something bad was going to happen, or projected images of fear when they wanted to be intimidating, but this is baby Anakin in a podrace, not Yoda fighting Palpatine. And only Magnus had a force weapon.

...oh, God, that's three pop culture references in one paragraph. A few more and this conversation could be so geeky that the universe will shudder.
 
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Son of LO
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But they couldn't read minds and hurl kamehamehas' all over the show.
Okay, this is Inquisitor terminology, but it seems to me that this is the difference between a 'psyker' and a 'wyrd.'

Wyrds have psychic powers, but due to some mutation or bizarre factor about themselves, it's entirely instinctive and natural to them. They don't use their powers with the conscious awareness that they're manipulating reality, rather, they just know where the assassin is hiding, or can randomly lift incredibly heavy objects, or instinctively heal themselves when wounded.

Additionally, while psykers suffer great danger using their powers, wyrds are relatively safe.

However, Wyrds also tend to be much more limited, with only a few key abilities which they can call upon. Psykers can systematically develop a range of abilities, and use them in a flexible manner.

Now, I'll imagine all the Primarchs probably had some Wyrd abilities which gave them superhuman strength and stamina, for example, but some will have been stronger wyrds, while others will have learned to harness their powers in a conscious, theoretical manner, and could have psychic powers too. Both are essentially doing the same thing, but one relies on instinct and natural talent, while the other more dangerous path relies on conscious practice and knowledge. One is safer, the other more versatile.
 

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Son of LO
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So, what you are saying is that instead of a stomach, Leman Russ got a big gateway to the warp in his body, where all the food went?
More likely he used some kind of instinctive biomancy power to alter his metabolism and digested the food really really fast.

That doesn't make a great deal more sense.. But heck, the Emperor was physically human and he could apparently eat superhuman ammounts. Blame GW, not me.
 

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The Emperor won by cheating.
Using his immense Psychic powers he just convinced everyone in the room that he had eaten all the food, when in fact he didn't even finish his BBQ Rib starter
 

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omegoku said

The Emperor won by cheating.
Using his immense Psychic powers he just convinced everyone in the room that he had eaten all the food, when in fact he didn't even finish his BBQ Rib starter



I knew it! That cheating so and so. No one could beat our great Lord Russ in an eating and Drinking contest. And as for Kraken and Titans, child's play to the Father of the Space Wolves.

You'd never guess I was a Space Wolves player?

Anyway back to the topic at hand. The Primarchs were demi-gods, yes probably not to the mythic levels that survive to the 41st millennium, but in a man-o-man combat vrs a Greater daemon, I'd be backing the Primarch. They were also great statesmen and charismatic and most importantly capable of acts of humanity and empathy. Imagine
Barack Obama, Sean Connery, Casanova, Leonardo De Vinci and that teacher you could always talk to because they understood, all rolled into one awesome 10 foot tall super warrior.

As for Stats, there is a rule set for Space Marines from Fluff. They are set at a toughness of 6. That is your current chop of neutered watered down, 200-400 active service years 41st millennium Marine, not the hot blooded, top of the line, immortal (ageing wise, no one likes a Lascannon to the face) Great Crusade type. So I'd imagine if one really really had to make Fluff backed rules for a Primarch, you'd be looking at 10's across the board. These chaps could break Warwalkers across their knees and move to fast for a Space Marine to follow.
 

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LO's unofficial Jester
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A Primarch 'killing' a Titan wouldn't be that much of an issue.

Say the battle is going on inside a massive city, Russ jumps down from a building onto the Titans Head, a short while later Titan is no more........


Personally I thought the portrayal of the Primarchs in the Heresy novels was really naff. At no point did I think they were anything more than skilled Marine commanders.

Apart from Angron, he pretty much lived up to expectations.
 

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From what I remember they never really show the Primarchs going all out in battle. (I've only read the first 3 and that was a few months ago so I may be wrong)

With stories like Sanguinius (sp?) holding up the entire hordes of chaos at the gates to the imperial palace single handed, you know these guys are incredible physically and mentally.

They were of course great commanders and brilliant generals, but when push comes to shove, they'll kick your butt!
 
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